Maximum "combat" range of a Snub Nose .38 Special?
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Super Sneaky Steve
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I also saw an episode of CANNON where William Conrad shot a BG off of a hill probably 200 yards away, with a quick fire hip shot!!!! 
I remember turning to my dad and seeing him shaking his head but holding his tongue as it was Moms favorite show after Hawaii 5-0 and Jack Lords amazing shooting abilities!
I remember turning to my dad and seeing him shaking his head but holding his tongue as it was Moms favorite show after Hawaii 5-0 and Jack Lords amazing shooting abilities!
Vice, Miami....
I recall as a teen in the mid 1980s, of a scene in the popular cop drama: Miami Vice, where Dade County Metro Det Sgt Rico Tubbs(Philip Michael Thomas) shot a bad guy only once at a range of approx 50ft.
In fairness, it seemed realistic, because even Tubbs stands up from cover and is surprised the one .38spl round could drop the bad guy.
Tubbs sidearm thru most of the cop series was a J frame S&W 49 Bodyguard.
A few times he used a SIG Sauer P226 9x19mm.
Clyde
I recall as a teen in the mid 1980s, of a scene in the popular cop drama: Miami Vice, where Dade County Metro Det Sgt Rico Tubbs(Philip Michael Thomas) shot a bad guy only once at a range of approx 50ft.
In fairness, it seemed realistic, because even Tubbs stands up from cover and is surprised the one .38spl round could drop the bad guy.
Tubbs sidearm thru most of the cop series was a J frame S&W 49 Bodyguard.
A few times he used a SIG Sauer P226 9x19mm.
Clyde
Quote:
And even if we assume that the bullets struck in front of the tablets and skidded in...we're looking at maybe...what...a half-inch low? That's close enough for government work in my book.
I would call it phenomenal in my book...We probably all wish we could have the dedication to learn such skills as Jordan had.
And even if we assume that the bullets struck in front of the tablets and skidded in...we're looking at maybe...what...a half-inch low? That's close enough for government work in my book.
I would call it phenomenal in my book...We probably all wish we could have the dedication to learn such skills as Jordan had.
I've met a lot of phenomenal shooters in my life. Pistol, shotgun et al. Never once, did any of them say "I have a gift for shooting well". Nor did any of them say "My gun is incredibly accurate". Every one of them DID say "I practice a LOT".
We were all born ugly and wet.
Sgt Lumpy
We were all born ugly and wet.
Sgt Lumpy
If the snubby has 5rds that makes the "maximum combat" range pretty close for me. 15'-25' ft. Basically what I can consonantly hit a paper plate with in a hurry.
People do this and that, jump houses with motorcycles, water ski with a dog on their head, shoot pennies in the air.
People do this and that, jump houses with motorcycles, water ski with a dog on their head, shoot pennies in the air.
Well, I do get slightly annoyed when people claim some sort of magical self defense range limit as an if it were written in stone.
I know what I am capable of doing with a decent handgun at 50, even 100 yards. I'm not speaking of snubs here, but 9mm's or other full sized service pistols.
If someone is shooting at me from 50ft, I am going to assume he is as capable a shot as me.
I do spend some time in the outdoors...I have backpacked in remote areas, and encountered a strange individual or two. It always occurred to me that the ability to shoot long range could come in handy...especially in these days of backwoods meth labs and weed plots...or just drunken rowdies looking for entertainment.
With that in mind, I always try to stretch the range of any handgun I carry.
While situational awareness and avoidance is first, escape and evasion is second...being able to place some well aimed shots at long range can certainly aid the later.
Besides, after learning to shoot long range, short range is easy.
I know what I am capable of doing with a decent handgun at 50, even 100 yards. I'm not speaking of snubs here, but 9mm's or other full sized service pistols.
If someone is shooting at me from 50ft, I am going to assume he is as capable a shot as me.
I do spend some time in the outdoors...I have backpacked in remote areas, and encountered a strange individual or two. It always occurred to me that the ability to shoot long range could come in handy...especially in these days of backwoods meth labs and weed plots...or just drunken rowdies looking for entertainment.
With that in mind, I always try to stretch the range of any handgun I carry.
While situational awareness and avoidance is first, escape and evasion is second...being able to place some well aimed shots at long range can certainly aid the later.
Besides, after learning to shoot long range, short range is easy.
Self defense and life or death situations is usually not the place to plain on using performance stunts. Usually people find tactics that work a large percentage of the time because they will be gambling their lives on them.
Reminds me of some karate people that train in fancy stunts then get surprised when they get their face pounded in because they fancy stuff didn't work out in real life.
Uh, ok. I'm not sure what you're suggesting there.
ANYone can learn to shoot accurately at greater than bad breath distance. It takes desire and practice. Nothing more. If someone can learn to shoot aspirins at 10 feet, doesn't it stand to reason that someone can learn to shoot sillhouette sized targets at 25-50-100+ yards?
The NEED or appropriateness of shooting in combat at 100yds with a snub is another question altogether. But the ABILITY is what I'm suggesting. We all have the ability. Some of us just tell ourselves that we can't.
I'll take Mr Jordan defending me at any distance over someone who says "I don't feel comfortable beyond XX range".
Sgt Lumpy
I am just suggesting a realistic "combat" range.
I would define "combat" as in a fight/someone trying to kill you. So if a murder is rushing at me I probably wouldn't start shooting at 100yds with a snub nose or would not suggest that kind of range to someone with a snub nose. People could hit stuff that far with a snub nose but as far as a "combat" range it seems pretty far fetched. I also put into the equation that the common sunb nose has 5-6rds. So I would not want to waste them at long uncertain shots.
Many of the trick shooters we see have a routine the train over and over on the same trick in the same controlled conditions. In a chaotic attack we can find patterns maybe if we are lucky. Then we still have the stress, chaos and life or death at stake.
Personally I would want ranges and tactics that are pretty solid.
The stress and chaos and life or death is at stake whether the good guy is a pistolero deluxe or a novice that took a class a year ago.
I'll choose the pistolero for my team.
I'm not saying, and I don't think anyone said that 100 yds is a realistic combat range for a home invasion or carjacking or ATM robbery. All I'm saying is that normal people, with the proper mindset and enough practice, can do things that people withOUT that mindset and practice don't believe is possible.
You're looking for an argument with me that doesn't exist.
Sgt Lumpy
orionengnr
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Absolutely. But he may shoot 100,000 rounds a year for ten years to get there...and that is not in the cards for most of us.
So we practice (what each of us considers) a reasonable amount, do some dry firing, maybe take a class when we can afford it. Some of us handload to increase the amount of shooting we can afford to do.
But none of us has an unlimited budget of time, money or ammo. And so each of us arrives at a certain proficiency level that may rise or fall, year in, year out. That is simply part of life. While we would each like to reach the level of Jerry Miculek, Bill Jordan, Todd Jarrett (fill in the blank) that is not a realistic expectation for 99.99% of us.
That is not making excuses--it is facing reality.
It is not rocket science to shoot any handgun combat accurately to the far reaches of its intrinsic range.
It is certainly nowhere near as hard to accomplish as it would be to equal Bill Jordan.
First, it takes the realization that it is possible.
Second, it is a matter of the fundamentals...
Sight picture
Breathing control
Trigger pull
Knowledge of how POA relates to POI at longer range.
Solid field position
If you are at a range with a dirt berm which allows it, just try picking out a visible feature like a weed, or toss a couple clay pigeons on it. Try shooting at it watch for the impacts...
I use the Elmer Keith method...hold at six o'clock, then raise front sight until the rear cuts it in half...unless the pistol is very flat shooting, like my Tokarev.
For me, I consider myself capable of hitting out to 50yds with my Model 38 Bodyguard Airweight.
The need for taking such a shot may be infinitesimal...but I have a friend who had such a shot, a shot the responding police told him they wish he would have taken. He did not because he had never shot his Model 10 snub farther than 20ft.
It is certainly nowhere near as hard to accomplish as it would be to equal Bill Jordan.
First, it takes the realization that it is possible.
Second, it is a matter of the fundamentals...
Sight picture
Breathing control
Trigger pull
Knowledge of how POA relates to POI at longer range.
Solid field position
If you are at a range with a dirt berm which allows it, just try picking out a visible feature like a weed, or toss a couple clay pigeons on it. Try shooting at it watch for the impacts...
I use the Elmer Keith method...hold at six o'clock, then raise front sight until the rear cuts it in half...unless the pistol is very flat shooting, like my Tokarev.
For me, I consider myself capable of hitting out to 50yds with my Model 38 Bodyguard Airweight.
The need for taking such a shot may be infinitesimal...but I have a friend who had such a shot, a shot the responding police told him they wish he would have taken. He did not because he had never shot his Model 10 snub farther than 20ft.
I'll rephrase...
You'll never be able to shoot at any significant distance. It's just not possible for you because you don't have an unlimited budget of time, money or ammo.
Is that better?
I posted this pic in another thread. The little kid in the pic was shooting his dad's 44 magnum. He was hitting the 7 ring in a standard bullseye target at 100 yards. Good thing that kid has an unlimited budget of time, money and ammo.
Sgt Lumpy
It would depend for me. In a life or death situation the gun is just one factor. Many people fall apart mentally when it comes down to it.
I'm not really looking for an argument I am just taking the other end of the spectrum in the discussion.
People are talking about some large distances for a snub nose in "combat" shooting for me it would be much less. I would also question many trick shooters performance under life or death stress.
Many things are possible especially with training but people have limitations.
You can haul firewood in a Corvette. But you're going to have to do a LOT more driving to get a cord home than you would if you used a pick up truck.
They call them belly guns for a reason. They work fine at belly to belly distances. The coarse sights, and less than precision trigger pulls (stock guns), and even (to a degree) the short sight radius work against easy long range precision shooting.
Can I hit a "regular" target at 100yds with a snub gun? Absolutely, once I have practiced enough to learn it. Single action, off hand, with a little bit of a learning curve I'll ring the 200yd gong on the rifle range. Been doing it for decades with all kinds of guns. Not nearly as difficult as many make it out to be.
That being said, combat shooting at that range with any pistol, let alone a snub nose is a) ridiculous, and b) next to impossible, even for experienced long range pistol shooters.
I am confident that if I had to, shooting a snub nose, DA, with the briefest time to aim, I could hit within a few yards (hopefully a few feet) at 100yds.
Aimed slow fire? They'd surely know they were being shot at, and if they stayed still, at 100yds, I'd get a hit before my gun was empty (providing, of course, I could spot the fall of shot...
)
Realistically, as a simple private citizen, I can' think of a single plausible situation were justifying defensive shooting at that distance would be easy, or even credible. But then, my imagination seems to be getting more limited, the older I get....
They call them belly guns for a reason. They work fine at belly to belly distances. The coarse sights, and less than precision trigger pulls (stock guns), and even (to a degree) the short sight radius work against easy long range precision shooting.
Can I hit a "regular" target at 100yds with a snub gun? Absolutely, once I have practiced enough to learn it. Single action, off hand, with a little bit of a learning curve I'll ring the 200yd gong on the rifle range. Been doing it for decades with all kinds of guns. Not nearly as difficult as many make it out to be.
That being said, combat shooting at that range with any pistol, let alone a snub nose is a) ridiculous, and b) next to impossible, even for experienced long range pistol shooters.
I am confident that if I had to, shooting a snub nose, DA, with the briefest time to aim, I could hit within a few yards (hopefully a few feet) at 100yds.
Aimed slow fire? They'd surely know they were being shot at, and if they stayed still, at 100yds, I'd get a hit before my gun was empty (providing, of course, I could spot the fall of shot...
)Realistically, as a simple private citizen, I can' think of a single plausible situation were justifying defensive shooting at that distance would be easy, or even credible. But then, my imagination seems to be getting more limited, the older I get....
The GUN isn't the deciding factor in my statement above. The "Pistolero" (that's a person) is. To suggest that a well trained pistol shooter is somehow LESS prepared or reliable in a combat situation than a novice who took a class a year ago is just plain goofy thinking, IMO. BOTH shooters (novice and expert) face the same stresses under combat. I'll take an expert shooter under stress over a novice shooter under stress any day.
OK, we differ.
People have limitations but those limitations are internal. There are no external factors that keep people from achieving something. Whatever is keeping the guy next to me from making that 100 yd shot and allowing me to make it is internal to both of us. He says "I can't". I say "I can".
Sgt Lumpy
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