Massive Glock-20 frame failure!

Z

Zigokubasi

New member
My buddy has been pretty proud of the 10mm Glock-20 he bought used not too long ago. A couple of other guys even bought Glock-20's, based on our experience with his (I must admit I really liked that gun). About 3 weeks ago he purchased an after-market .357 Sig drop-in barrel, and we were all pretty excited, this being our first chance to mess around with that caliber. Now according to the barrel manufacturer, the Glock-20 is more than capable of handling the .357 Sig, so it was an easy conversion. No worries. Yeah, right. It worked great for the first couple of shoots, but last week (the one time I wasn't there), apparently his girlfriend was shooting it, when for one reason or another, the damn thing blew up in her hand! From the picture I've seen, as well as their descriptions, the failure started in the chamber, fracturing the barrel, slide, and frame causing the magazine to fall out. The Hogue Handall overgrip that came with the thing saved her hand from any real injury, but her trigger finger was pretty messed up. The tip of the bone is cracked, and she's got an ugly bruise where the trigger sat. He sent the damn thing to Glock, and they're gonna X-Ray it and try to determine if the failure was caused by faulty ammo, a manufacturing defect, or some other factor. It the ammo caused it, they said the ammo company is *going* to pay for his new Glock, and if they caused it, then Glock will replace his pistol for free. Otherwise, they'll send him a new for $90 anyway. Now *that's* customer service.

Have any of you guys ever seen or heard of this kind of thing happening with after-market caliber conversions in Glocks before?

Ziggy
 
What kind of ammo was being used?

.357SIG is a pretty high-pressure round, and the bottlenecked cartidge is susceptible to bullet setback leading to serious overpressure issues.

Most manufacturers have addressed this, but I'm skeptical of, say, S&B .357SIG or off-brand reloads in that caliber (I have a G33).
 
It happens more than "a few times". But you won't get a straight story around here. It's called a "kB." Search the term both here and on the web and read 'till you weep.
 
Where's the after-market pistol barrel maker figure in all this?

What brand barrel did he have in it? What magazines was he using? If he was using Glock 20 magas could that have contributed to the ammo setting backing by feeding, but not feeding properply (jamming the bullet back in the case)?

What brand ammo? --new or reloads (factory or otherwise? I am with Tamara that the ammo is the most likely culprit (maybe coupled with a bad barrel). The more I mess with the 357 Sig, the more I am convinced that the case is about of a tenth of an inch too short to ever really be safe (no matter how much glue you use).

Glock should not even be looking at it if had after-market parts in it (unless they are pretty sure it was a frame failure to begin with and not related to the after-market accessories). Or has Glock just had so many kB!s that they just pay-off and not ask questions? I could see where it would only take one or two dissatisfied (read, not bought-off) customers to really cause them a world of hurt--partiuclarly in the PR and LE sales arena.
 
Ziggy:

There are whole dissertations on the web about kabooms but its usually the:

AMMO
AMMO
AMMO

probably NOT THE GUN - Glock designed the Glock 20 as a 10mm platform.

Why'd it probably blow?

Due to poor quality ammunition, third world crap
cheap gun show reloads
A buddy reloaded some ammo for you while drinking or high or made a big mistake by not starting fresh each time
Case reloaded way too many times
Or she fired the gun when the slide was out of battery OR
Maybe the aftermarket barrel didn't fit properly.

Not heard any problems with KKM, Federal Arms, or Barsto barrels.

And the 10mm case is right behind the 9mm round so far as case strength and engineering. They are pretty beefy.

But Tamara is right. Bullet setback is a concern for us bottleneck shooters. Got to have a nice case tension going and a powder that fills the case to avoid setback.

Probably the ammo. Has been some bad stuff floating around.

Glad she wasn't severly hurt.

But that's why I reload - don't trust someone else to make my explosives! I know what's in there.

That's the first Glock 20 or 10mm I've heard going boom.
 
juliet:

Pete has done a lot of good reserach and if you use the copper-plated bullets and crimp to .379 or .380" and use a powder like AA#9, bullet setback is not an issue.
 
It happens more than "a few times". But you won't get a straight story around here. It's called a "kB." Search the term both here and on the web and read 'till you weep.
Click to expand...

That's right, Cruzer, we're all engaged in a massive conspiracy of silence. MWAH HA HA!..... :rolleyes:


Yeah. Search the web. You'll get 57 different reasons for the phenomenon, mostly from people who will come and post them here for you anyway.

The main theory you'll hear is "Glock factory barrels have dangerously unsupported chambers!", which completely fails to explain how a SAAMI-spec cartridge suffering a case failure in the 6 o'clock position sometimes just spits the mag out and sometimes leads to the chamber failing at 10 and 2 and the barrel hood peeling back like a banana. Most of the people out there will tell you to remedy this by getting a good aftermarket barrel...

I can see Cruzer read the post thoroughly before typing his response. ;)
 
Yep..we need more information such as the barrel manufacturer and ammo maker.

Even ammo that comes from a reputable source can have problems. Last night a the range while shooting my MK9 I almost loaded a bad round into my pistol. From one angle and the rear it looked almost normal, but from another you could see the entire round was deformed like it was smashed in a roller mechanism of some sort. The round was even nicely polished where the damage was done. When I find someone with a digital cam I'll take a picture or send it to someone who can take a pic for me. Ohh..the ammo type? Winchester. The white box type 9mm 115gr FMJ. I've never had a problem with this type of ammo before. They make great stuff, but everyone can have a bad one slip through.

As for Glock KB's...you're right half right. I don't want to weep. I want to barf when I hear it again. Seems like I always read about it, but I have never seen it happen in my years of shooting and carrying Glocks.

Good Shooting
RED
 
Blah, blah, blah...:D

Glock kBs are a spectator sport for me. Never had a Glock, never shot a Glock (other than dry fired), don't particularly like or dislike them, and actually, if Glock is a religion (and it is :p ) then I am agnostic. ;)
 
Note that in this case the barrel AND slide AND frame were fractured. That's not a normal case failure, ladies and gentlemen. :eek:

A merely "ordinary" case failure will rupture the case at around 6 o'clock and blow out the magazine. Sounds like that round must have had SERIOUS problems... and maybe there was something very wrong with the metallugry of the aftermarket barrel, too.
 
I still don't see how this is the Glock's problem. If you replace the barrel, and shoot a caliber that the gun wasn't originally designed for, you've really designed your own gun...
 
I agree, if I were Glock I would say beat it! Let's see, aftermarket barrel in a gun not originally chambered for .357. Jeez.
 
jt -
bullet setback is not an issue.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, bullet setback will always be a potential issue the 357--the case is just too short. (Furhtermore, setback is an issue with all pistol ammunition to a certain extent--it's just a greater concern for the 357 Sig and probably the .40 S&W.) I believe even your first post in the string of three mentions setback as potential issue in the this case.

To oversimplify, the problem with the 357 Sig (and the .40 S&W), the designers started with the overall length and the power level they wanted to achieve set in concrete. The designers did not design a round that would do what they wanted it to do and let that determine the optimum OAL, they started a fixed OAL with which they could not exceed no matter what. It would have probably been better engineering if they could have increased the OAL ever so slightly (say a tenth of inch).

You and I are off the subject of thread by the way.
 
I think Glock is crazy if they replace this gun, or do any repair work on it for free.

Glock should not be held responsible for what people do to their guns after they are sold. If you put a non-factory barrel in it, I would say that should pretty much void any warranty. Even more so, if the barrel is for a different caliber than the gun.

I had the pleasure of operating on a poor sap who swapped barrels on a Sig. Its been a couple of years ago, but I think he did a 40 S&W to 357 Sig switch. I dont remember the details of how it happened, but it blew up on him, and sent a bunch of metal shards into his belly.

Anyway, that event lead me to the conclusion that maybe we should only have one caliber to a gun.
 
I would agree that the 357 and .40 take more caution in loading because of the potential of bullet setback -- this is a grave enemy. I've loaded 10's of thousands of rounds of 357 Sig and have never had a problem. The only problem with the 357 Sig is that people and factories have to know how to load it correctly, and hence safely. If that simple fact cannot be followed, the 357 Sig should be taken off the market.

With the proper powder, components, and correct die setup, the 357 Sig is quite safe to load and shoot.

Wait a minute, aren't we supposed to be talking about the Glock 20 10mm pistol? Oh, I guess it's OK since they were using a drop-in 357 Sig barrel :)
 
Setback.
Tis always a good idea to eyeball your ammo. even if it is only when loadin magazines.

Even factory ammo can be mishandled to the extent that some of the rounds suffer setback.

Same goes for high primers. They happen.

Sam
 
I'm not the brightest bulb on the old Christmas tree, so help me out here. How did this:
Massive Glock-20 frame failure!
Click to expand...
Cause this:
the failure started in the chamber
Click to expand...
I'm not a Glock pathologist, but it would seem that the chamber failure and/or ammunition failure is the beginning and end of the story. All other damage would be subsequent to the chamber/ammo failure. When I bought my Glock, they were quite specific about no after market anything. Perhaps they wanted to protect themselves against people that would contend that a frame failure could cause a chamber rupture. Cruzer, I am a proud member of the conspiracy, how am I doing so far?
 
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