Mass shootings and other factors.

[The Tourist]

rush to judgement...classified as "mentally ill"...very deep rooted anger...self-destructive or anger issues...they're engaged in risky behaviors

Bill, for once we agree 100%. The problem here is that are identifying two distinct types of people. Let me explain.

I believe that there are such people in the world, and for the life of me, I don't know what makes them tick. As I have said ad nauseum, that is not the world of bipolars--people who are driven deep inside themselves in almost an OCD journey of negative self-examination.

However, have you ever heard the expression "suicide by cop"? Well, after learning all that I can about my own disorder, and talking to LEOs and even reading things in combat forums, I think we have identified the wrong group, but for all of the right reasons.

I know you've seen it here, but sometimes a thread will start, with the core scenario being flight/fight and armed conflict of a very lethal nature.

Somewhere in that exchange of posts, we will see a person whom most of us term a "chest thumper." He's the guy who begins his post with "I own numerous combat guns..." and then ends with "...and that's why I'd sacrifice my life."

He's not a soldier, or even a handsomely paid mercenary. He's not even a mall ninja, and that's what ultimately scares me.

He's an individual who is virtually screaming that his life is a worthless bargaining chip, but he has some reservations about eating the barrel of the pistol by himself. Life is miserable for him (by his own deep reflection) and he wants to "earn back status" by doing what he thinks society ordains.

That being his own demise.

I'll bet most of the members here envision a "patient" as a small, emaciated bundle of fears, a terrified little man who sees goblins in every shadow. Not true.

About two years ago a guy I rode with died in a crash. I knew he was bipolar, because we had the same shrink. He was mouthy, brash, and he was a beautifully sculpted body builder. But if you listened to his prose, he might pepper his language with, "I don't care if I rot in the ground."

He died in a motorcycle wreck not long after that.

When I see a member here "over state" his possible actions in a gambit that might take his life, I know that I am seeing an individual in deep depression.

Why does he feel his life means so little? Why is his first reaction to the posted event a move of sacrifice? After all, a police officer running to someone's aid might understand the extreme ramifications, but he's not planning his deliberate death.

So don't seek to tarnish the bipolars who are getting (proper) medical care. They don't wish to die. In fact, a piano has been lifted from their backs and they are enjoying life for the first time. And as I have reminded you, of the thousands of murders in this country, the patients do very few. It's much like an airplane crash--very few of them, it's just that they are spectacular.

Instead, eye the chest-thumper with care. His life means nothing--and he's screaming it at you. The most common reaction of a human is self-preservation. And a guy who wants to go "in a blaze of glory" is undiagnosed and dangerously walking our streets.

 

[DCFarris]

It is often easy to see the ones with self-destructive or anger issues. These are the ones who disfigure their bodies using cutting, burning, graphic tattoos (as shown above), excessive piercings and other "alterations". We shouldn't confuse tattos like those above with the tattoos sported by gang members or singular tattoos done on a lark.

Ok, while I agree the "Saw" related tattoo is a little bad, but I don't think that we can start judging people by their tattoos. Pentagrams aren't just a sign of devil worshiping. Pentagrams have been used by Wiccans for ages, and there is nothing evil about their religion.

As for the skull and knife tattoo, isn't that a fairly common one? In fact, isnt that a fairly popular tattoo for people who have served in the military? How many people have a tattoo of the Grim Reaper or something else commonly associated with death on them? Do you think that all of them are going to run out and start shooting up schools? Should we prevent them from owning firearms at all?

 

[The Tourist]

As for the skull and knife tattoo, isn't that a fairly common one

I can't speak for others, but my belief is that a true pathological killer does not simply exhibit one singular behavior--it's a bunch of things.

For example, the FBI has found that killers of this kind usually tortured animals and started fires as a child.

I'm not an expert, but I believe "spree killers" fit in that category.

But my point, again, is that simply being bipolar means nothing.

I think that if a guy had bad parenting, other issues (like bedwetting for example), an early fascination with weapons and pain, disregard for his own personal safety, boasting, the OCD collecting of anything but primarily weapons (some patients claim that they are "never safe enough") and the overall belief that they are alone in a world gone mad--then look out, the guy is going to snap at the first stimuli!

And that stimuli might be meds, or it might be the cancelation of his favorite TV program. For example, the ER's in Wisconsin report that lots of women get battered by their husbands when the Green Bay Packers lose a football game.

I don't fear sitting next to a patient in a waiting room.

However, I do fear a guy who throws down a newspaper and says something like, "My dad was right--the whole world is full of a-holes! I'm going to buy a gun..."

 

[ConfuseUs]

It seems to me that it's pretty much a combination of depression mixed with rage against society and a burning desire for notoriety. A lot of spree killers are still out there nursing their grudges against society and wanting the attention that notoriety brings. The drugs some of these guys might be taking could be a factor as well, but I don't think it's a very big one. Killing sprees happened long before some of these drugs were invented.

I've said it many times before, but taking away the blaze of glory a mass shooter gets in the national media will probably do more to fix the problem than anything else. Making a social promise to never mention that person's name in a public forum and to bury them at sea so no one knows their final resting place would probably stop a lot of these sickos from making their twisted plans in the first place.

 

[BillCA]

As for the skull and knife tattoo, isn't that a fairly common one? In fact, isnt that a fairly popular tattoo for people who have served in the military? How many people have a tattoo of the Grim Reaper or something else commonly associated with death on them? Do you think that all of them are going to run out and start shooting up schools? Should we prevent them from owning firearms at all?

It's not the only thing that would indicate a mental health issue, but it can be one of the visible ones. Combine graphic tats that are large, bloody/violently graphic along with other factors - drug use, cutting/burning or other self-mutilations, crime involvement, etc. and you have someone who's a potential time bomb. I've seen this in several cases. Combine with statements like "I didn't ask to be born." or "People are all full of sh--" and it's almost a sure bet.

I'm not talking about the college guy or girl who gets a tattoo in an intimate place on a lark. Nor the "trendy" fashionable tats you see some sporting. It's the grotesque large tattoos of blood, death, and cruelty that are the keys.

I've heard shrinks say that kids dressing "wierd" with spikey green hair and other such things are often more of a struggle against anonymity than a cry for help. They want to some notoriety and if they can't become famous, they'll stand out in the crowd.

Circling back to the medication issue, to date many reports indicate people on psychotropic drugs who suddenly stop taking them and shortly thereafter "go postal". Sometimes it's a mixture of drugs they're on (as in the most recent case). I think more care needs to be exercised by the medical community when treating people with these drugs and dealing with the side effects.

 

[Perldog007]

Whatever causes these spree shooters (an extreme indicator seems to be prozac or other psychotropic drug) to kill we can be sure that causing their victims to be defenseless greatly increases their chance of success.

Since most people are not spree shooters or violent criminals it makes sense to do away with restrictive gun legislation. When most everybody can carry, it makes the small percentage of "felons, lunatics, demonaics, madmen, and miscreants" much less potent.

 

[The Tourist]

many reports indicate people on psychotropic drugs who suddenly stop taking them and shortly thereafter "go postal"

As a singular issue, sure, there are examples out there. But how do you account for the tens of millions who "ramp up" and do so without a wrinkle.

After a sufferer secures a professional and takes an MMPI2 test, they meet with a psychiatrist and a cognitive guy and lay out a course of treatment.

The assumption people make is that a doctor gives them "a drug" and everything goes right from that moment on. Not true.

A clinical dosage that aids the sufferer might take six weeks of a period called "ramp up." As the drug begins to take hold, there might also be periods where it seems to have no effect, or even hasten events like anxiety.

Sometimes even after the six weeks of carefully monitored use, it turns out that the initial panel of drugs has failed. So the patient 'ramps up' on another drug--even several drugs working in conjunction.

During this period, tens of million of drug combinations and individual sufferers have been placed onto, and taken off, courses of treatment.

Of those millions, perhaps one guy committed an attack.

What is reported is this one guy, not the tens of millions that were saved--or did nothing but sleep.

To claim that the "use or cessation of meds" causes violence is simply junk science. It's not true, it's never been true, and no psychiatrist is going to let you get away with such a grievous falsehood.

More killers have imbibed mothers' milk than meds. If not, how do you explain all of those murders done by you sane people?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, this killer and many others that weren't necessarily spree killers but who maybe only killed one or two people have their behaviors rooted in a series of factors. It is virtually impossible for their killing to be the result of one thing. In this regard, The Tourist is correct.

HOWEVER, and it is a big however, all those same factors present in another person may not result in the same behavior. It is very difficult to actually be able to know what factors are actually causative versus correlative versus contributing.

Not everyone who engages in self mutilation, tats, injured animals as a child, and is on meds turns out to be a killer. So can you say that these are causative factors? Not really.

Forensic psychologists may be able to figure out what factors that led to pushing the person over the proverbial edge, but none may actually be causative. The only causative aspect may be how the person in question deals with all of the factors influencing them and is compelled to act. In other words, causation may simply be a mental construct and nothing more. That is where things get scary.