Mass shootings and other factors.

[The Tourist]

As you know, we had another shooting last week, and there was a rush to judgement because the alleged felon had a history of mental illness.

As you can well imagine, I bristle at this junk science. A singular issue means nothing. Millions of patients work and interact with no problems at all.

To my way of thinking, these killings are the result of numerous factors all coming together. And after reading today's WSJ, I'm more convinced than ever.

For example, the Illionois shooter was a student here in Wisconsin at one time. In other words, he lived here.

It would also be interesting to me if this shooter had any tattoos. (Fully 100% of every inmate on death row has tattoos.)

This starts to paint a picture for me, because the shooter begins to look like other Wisconsin killers, notably Ed Gein and Jeffrey Dahmer. Further, all of them were quiet and unassuming.

As I have always believed, mass killers are a mix of culture, parental rearing (or the lack), social mores, education and job opportunties. And those traits have previously appeared in other local killers.

Just as a LEO profiler can paint a picture of a killer by identifying a slate of behaviors, we clearly need to look beyond a singular trait of "he took meds."

Personally, I'm going to avoid other cheesehead citizens who are quiet and show ink. Especially if I sharpen for them.

You see, Jeffrey and Ed really liked knives...

 

[9mmHP]

Yes, he had tattoos, where've you been?

 

[The Tourist]

Yes, he had tattoos, where've you been?

To be frank, once the public (and many TFL members) became fixated on his diagnosis, I lost total interest.

I mean, they *know* what caused him to act the way he did, and he's dead.

And after reading numerous posts by fellow members who questioned the lives of sufferers, even the ones successfully treated, I felt like I was howling in the wind.

In fact, I don't even really care about this one shooter. My goal is to demonstrate to members here that a diagnosis doesn't mean as much as you think it does. It's a factor, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[9mmHP]

So, those are his tatts (his tattooist liked them enough to take pictures for us). I'm totally OK with locking up cheeseheads with scary knife tatts on them.

 

[The Tourist]

I'm totally OK with locking up cheeseheads with scary knife tatts on them.

There might be more truth than poetry in your observation. Why have some of the most grizzly murderers in history all had those common traits?

 

[jephthai]

As I have always believed, mass killers are a mix of culture, parental rearing (or the lack), social mores, education and job opportunties.

There is also some correlation with occult influences with many serial killers. Hard to say if that pentagram tattoo is representative of occultism or selected only as a "fad", but fixation on darkness and death seems to be a bad thing to me.

Plus, there's Jack Thompsons assertion that it's violent video games.

-Jephthai-

 

[The Tourist]

There was another article in our WSJ this morning morning on the killer and Prozac.

Oh, sure, the article mentions him stopping the drug (non-compliance) near the top of the article.

What it also mentioned was that authorities don't know if it's a factor.

It also stated something I've been harping on since day one. That is, non-compliance brings on mood swings, depression, sexual dysfunction, lack of sleep, etc.--those elements of behavior that turn a patient inward, not outward.

You'll also notice that "mass murder" isn't one of the behaviors.

The fact is that you 'normal' guys kill more people--and I mean by the thousands--then we sufferers do.

Now, why is this important?

Because there will always be new sufferers born, every day. In fact, most people with mental disorders are not even diagnosed. The government, on their best day, cannot control or even tabulate the numbers.

A full blown undiagnosed looney-tune has the same right as you do to own a firearm.

What the government can do, and of course did do after the Stockton, California shooting, was to crack down hard on the ownership of semi-automatic rifles. The rifles they call "assault weapons."

So before we, the gun owning citizens, start screaming about things we don't understand we had better start studying mental illness beyond the sound byte.

There might one or two patient-related murders per year. However, among spousal abuse, gang bangin' warfare and simple homicide, you guys make us bi-polars look like pikers.

If there is fall-out from this tragedy it will manifest itself on the rifle, not the patient.

 

[9mmHP]

Actually, I think there is probably LOTS of mental illness, diagnosed and undiagnosed, among those criminal subgroups you mentioned.

 

[Musketeer]

The best way of spotting these individuals before they take action is for those in immediate contact with them to draw attention to their actions.

The latest killer in IL had a girlfriend who has explained he was seeing someone monthly for help. He decided on his own to stop his medication. As a result he was acting erratic and had a short temper. He then went and bought a couple guns out of the blue claiming they were for defense. Of course she still states that she saw nothing abnormal... Either she is stupid or so shocked with grief at her inaction that she can think of nothing else to say.

Every person with depression is not going to go on a shooting spree just like every person with guns is not going to go on a shooting spree. It does work out though that those dealing with depression and owning guns are often the ones responsible for the shooting.

Look at all the relevant factors and if you think something is wrong do something.

If your friend or lover who has a history of being committed for cutting himself , is under psychiatric care and has covered his arms with rather "dark" tattoos stops taking his medication, starts acting erratic, begins loosing his temper more and decides out of the blue to go buy a couple guns CALL HIS DOCTOR!!!

 

[The Tourist]

I think there is probably LOTS of mental illness, diagnosed and undiagnosed, among those criminal subgroups you mentioned.

starts acting erratic, begins loosing his temper more and decides out of the blue to go buy a couple guns CALL HIS DOCTOR!!!

This is where the issue for firearms owners get murky.

Obviously, we're the good guys. And we believe in freedom. We also believe that no tree-hugger has the right to go through our gun cabinets or even our posts in a forum.

However, added to those freedoms is the right in guarding against some nanny state to go through my medicine cabinet and doctors' records.

Here's the slippery slope. If you allow my very private association with a doctor to be eroded, you do two very negative things.

The first is obvious. It will mean that those people who desperately need treatment will go "underground." Either they will avoid responsible medical treatment for fear of arrest, or they will simply self-medicate with massive amounts of street drugs and alcohol.

You must remember, at this stage, the sufferer is not a patient, and has the same right to buy guns as you do.

The second aspect is the one that should be the most troubling to legal gun owners. If we allow any procedure to strip firearms from people who have not yet committed crimes, then it gives the leftists a powerful tool to use against you!

Tax evasion is a crime. When will your neighbor turn you in for idle chat you slurred while intoxicated at a tavern? Well my friend, if you did it once, chances are you will do it again. And since there's this big juicy precedent that just slid through the Supreme Court on patients, let's try it on you.

A patient, a sufferer, a person with sleep disorders, a troubled vet, or an overworked colleague are all innocent citizens seeking solace and proper direction from trained medical personnel. Most often, they are driven inward.

When the final chapter is written about this Illinois shooter it will probably indicate that he was troubled by numerous factors. My concern is that the public will only focus on his use of Prozac.

Yes, a concerned wife or relative should have expressed their concerns--in private, to someone with a degree.

I'm bipolar, I use Wellbutrin--and I get angry. But if you poke the bear, the reason you wake up in an ER is not my diagnosis, it's the fact that you're an idiot.

The sufferers of mental disorders deserve that same latitude in their personal dalily lives. We are not whackos with deer rifles.

Between you and I, I believe this singular troubled shooter is probably an example of the worst outcome of a troubled nature.

Having said that, I could go right now down to Joey's Anchor Inn and find twenty toothless townies who are more capable of larceny and homicide than any one thousand patients being treated by my doctors.

Not only do these events make me concerned about my freedoms, but also about the future of my firearms rights.

 

[Musketeer]

The Tourist said:

I'm bipolar, I use Wellbutrin--and I get angry. But if you poke the bear, the reason you wake up in an ER is not my diagnosis, it's the fact that you're an idiot.

So if you are incapable of controlling your emotions and are prone to violent outbursts because I got on your bad side on a bad day it is my fault that you put me in the hospital? Sorry but this line does nothing to support your contention that the majority of people dealing with mental health issues are not a danger to others (I even agree with you on that).

Yes, a concerned wife or relative should have expressed their concerns--in private, to someone with a degree.
...
Between you and I, I believe this singular troubled shooter is probably an example of the worst outcome of a troubled nature.

Two statements I agree with fully which bracket another, the first quote, that shoots your position in the foot... Sorry but if you are prone to violent outbursts from mental illness which you deem uncontrollable and the fault of the person who upset you then I would agree you are a person who the system should strip of their gun rights due to being a significant danger to others.

I am not saying I should have the right to take those rights away, I am saying it should be done through proper due process. All I can say is I really hope your "poke the bear" comment was internet posturing.

 

[The Tourist]

So if you are incapable of controlling your emotions and are prone to violent outbursts because I got on your bad side

Not at all. Perhaps the slang is different in your area. Let me explain.

Locally, the expression "poke the bear" simply means that you have created such a dangerous and foolhearty condition that even a sleeping bear has to respond.

In other words, you're dining with your wife and kids and some drunken townie tries to pick a fight with you several times. Finally, he grabs you.

Oh, BTW, society does allow bipolars to defend themselves.

Again, my disorder is not an excuse for your bad manners and dangerous conduct. (And why any straight thinking individual would poke a biker when he's eating still baffles me.)

And in very general terms, perhaps I've used too much tongue-in-cheek humor on this very serious isssue.

You see, the same leftie, socialist nannies who would offer broad discretionary powers to society "lest I hurt myself" are the same gang who want to relieve you of your firearms.

In the final analysis, you too are crazy for enjoying a good hunt or a communist assault weapon. Your answer to less crime is more guns. You must be insane!

If you create lopholes in The Constitution to lock me up everytime I sneeze, then in effect you are creating a world in where you're next.

If the Illinois shooter is guilty because he is sick and in fact committed the crime, then technically he is either innocent of any crime or improperly diagnosed. Any patient who gets ill or disoriented on their meds is simply on the wrong panel of drugs. I'm living proof of that! I cannot handle Geodon.

My psychiatrist is tenacious, competent and dedicated. I feel better than ever before! If I'm running low on my prescription, I'm the one that goes running to the pharmacy.

Beware of simplistic answers on this topic. The next straight jacket is in your size.

 

[44capnball]

So if you are incapable of controlling your emotions and are prone to violent outbursts because I got on your bad side on a bad day it is my fault that you put me in the hospital?

Well, if he weren't bipolar, and he had a uniform, and you were the incarcerated quadriplegic he just dumped from your wheelchair because you refused to comply with his commands, then yes.


I still think there are a lot of hard questions surrounding these mass shootings anyway, we don't have all the information and the media aren't willing or able to reveal that information.

 

[The Tourist]

I still think there are a lot of hard questions surrounding these mass shootings

I agree. However, look at Musketeer's feeling about being smacked by a bipolar.

After all, Musketeer is a TFL member, he's one of the good guys. But even a good guy feels that if a bipolar acts just like you would, he's out of control.

Apply that to us as firearm's owners. If you get jumped by a mugger, but survive by shooting him, trust me, you will not get sympathy in the press or in society.

The editorials will reflect that you are a 'vigilante.' Most "decent folk" will ask why you just didn't give the guy the money. Some will even refer to the mugger as "the victim."

And that's if you have the luxury of being 'sane.'

As I have stated, if I had to carve up an attacker, even to save my wife or a friend, I will guaranty you that someone will depict me in the press as "that crazy biker." People will question if I was 'off my meds.' (And BTW, one member here once asked if I was off my meds.) I probably will have to answer questions to the DA that you might not.

It's a short step from a patient's bizarre behavior to any behavior gun owners present that isn't mainstream conduct.

 

[Yellowfin]

Another problem in this is that with the increasing prevalence of treatment for mental health problems, even the tiniest bits which amount in all actuality to nothing more than the equivalent of the flu or the chicken pox could be treated as grounds for disarming someone. In short, the antis are trolling for more excuses to exclude people from their rights, and in this they've found something. If they had their way, simply being interested in firearms would be classified as a mental disorder and thus would disqualify someone from owning them!

 

[The Tourist]

the antis are trolling for more excuses...simply being interested in firearms would be classified as a mental disorder

While I have an immediate and personal stake in being tarred, your opinion is undoubtedly very correct.

I fear the first wave. And that will be a little yellow star on my drivers license notifying store owners of just what items I'm allowed to buy as a "mental patient."

If more shootings occur, I'll probably have to wear the yellow star on my coat so that law enforcement will be kept abreast of my movements.

Ultimately, I'll probably be moved to my very own gated community. Actually, that will be quite nice.

All of my neighbors will be bipolars, bikers, strict constructionists, former firearms owners--you know, all of the people that minimized the idea today.

 

[Musketeer]

Not at all. Perhaps the slang is different in your area. Let me explain.

Locally, the expression "poke the bear" simply means that you have created such a dangerous and foolhearty condition that even a sleeping bear has to respond.

In other words, you're dining with your wife and kids and some drunken townie tries to pick a fight with you several times. Finally, he grabs you.

I see, it is the level of bear poking we are not meeting eye to eye on. Never mind.

 

[44capnball]

But even a good guy feels that if a bipolar acts just like you would, he's out of control.

That's why I made that sarcastic comment about the quadriplegic being dumped from his wheelchair by someone for not following a command, and it being OK because the guy had a uniform. Even though he acted indistinguishably from a violent person with a hair trigger. It's sort of the flip side of what you're talking about.

I brought it up because I just saw that video, linked in another thread.

If somebody picks a fight with a random guy at a bar, comes up to him and starts poking him, hitting him, whatever... it would be stupid not to expect the guy to fight back. Bipolar or not. If that's what you're saying I agree with that.

 

[The Tourist]

fight back...Bipolar or not...If that's what you're saying I agree

Yes, I understood. I'm just making sure we all did.

 

[BillCA]

Tourist,

Getting back to your original point --which I presumed to be that we shouldn't rush to judgement that it was the fault of a particular medication-- there is some truth to what you say. But I think it goes beyond what you've described.

There are a lot of people in society who can be classified as "mentally ill" because they are disturbed, or have very deep rooted anger, self-destructive and some are just plain looney-tunes. The last category are typically the ones who get institutionalized early.

It is often easy to see the ones with self-destructive or anger issues. These are the ones who disfigure their bodies using cutting, burning, graphic tattoos (as shown above), excessive piercings and other "alterations". We shouldn't confuse tattos like those above with the tattoos sported by gang members or singular tattoos done on a lark.

If they're not disfiguring themselves, they're engaged in risky behaviors, usually involving alcohol or illicit drugs. Some of the angry types self-medicate this way too but it seems to me that they are more introverted.

But I do think the medical community is too lax with their treatment of mental illnesses too. Too many doctors are simply legitimized pill-dispensers with little or no inclination to do more for the patient. At least that's been the experience here with several individuals known to me using different facilities.

Unfortunately some doctors prescribe the pills and say "come back in 6 months" and that is a bit too late. One local county doctor was found to be telling patients to "just deal with it" in regards to side effects. This isn't acceptable at all.

I also think there need to be better warnings on the drugs, especially about mixing them with other drugs, alcohol or suddenly stopping the medication.