Martial Arts Over Forty

Sigh...

tprT:

Don't take this personally, but it appears to me that you do not really understand a good portion of my posts.

In a previous example I gave, my wife was NOT in a grappling match with the big Tae Kwon Do guy. They were in a minimum-rules fight (punches, elbows, kicks, etc. all allowed; eye-gouges, biting and groin-grab were not in the interest of safety, mainly for the guy). My petite little wife was had no trouble choking this muscle-head to complete unconsciousness (previously he boasted about how he'd do this or that against a grappler).

BTW, the Shooto gym where I used to train, there was a number of fairly small women who were training in Vale Tudo/NHB matches. They trained in boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and Shootwrestling. Seeing as how some of them were professional caliber, I'd be afraid to try to "hit her with a quick flury of punches, elbows and kicks" as you put it.

What is clear from this statement about to me is that you have very little idea of how a clinch or a shoot-in works. If you ever try to punch or kick a grappler, you will soon find that it will help him shoot-in on you. Check out the firt four UFCs to see what happens when masters of striking tried to punch and kick their grappling opponents.

Most competent grapplers are extremely well-versed in countering folks who try to punch or kick. The reverse is usually not true. Folks with little grappling experience have trouble countering shoot-in's and other grappling techniques.

The more I discuss this with you, the more I realize how little personal experience in grappling you have (again, don't take it personally - I am being "matter-of-fact" here; that's just how your posts appear to me).

None of the things I write to you seem to be serving as further "food for thought."

Again, check out a BJJ school that does any modicum of Vale Tudo training. I guarantee you that it will open eyes.

The first time I felt the effectiveness of grappling was when I had a challenge match with a guy (minimum rules) a couple of years ago. I was about 6'1" and 175-180lbs. and the other guy was a neck shorter and about 150lbs.

I considered myself with a good fighter with years of boxing, Tae Kwon Do (trained in Korea) and Shotokan Karate (trained in Japan) training with plenty of street experience. The other guy (several years younger than me) had been doing BJJ for a few years.

I thought that I'd knock this guy out cold when he tried to grab me. Boy, was I wrong! When I tried to kick him, he shot-in on me, double-legged me and mounted me. He proceeded to punch me in the face, at which point I turtled (this is a very common reaction). He then rear-naked choked me and I tapped.

I thought it was his dumb luck, so we went at it again. This time I thought I'd stick to punches. Before I could unleash even a single punch on me, he ranged me and shot-in on me again! I had almost no time to react to his shoot-in. Same result. Got rear-naked choked again.

I was beginning to see a pattern.

I urge you to check it out yourself. A lot of what you say sound like what Tae Kwon Do guys used to say about grappling arts before the advent of NHB fighting in this country.

Lastly, why is BJJ more appropriate for, say, a civilian female interested in anti-rape techniques than a Navy SEAL?

Because, a civilian female in an attempted rape situation would be generally unarmed and she may be grabbed and tackled. BJJ or other grappling techniques are ideal for dealing with this kind of situation.

On the other hand, a SEAL operator fights in military situations with M4s, MP5's, BMGs and other small-arms and crew-served weapons. At minimum, he will have a rifle/SMG, grenades, a pistol and a knife. His comrades may have a SAW or even a BMG and an automatic grenade launcher mounted on a dune-buggy. He will usually be in an offensive operation of some sort as a part of a team. For him, any kind of unarmed fighting system is really irrelevant, and a morale-builder/hobby at worst. A more ideal system of CQC for him (if he were so inclined) would be something like the military Sambo that Russian Spetznaz learn.

See, it's really all about "context."

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Check out the firt four UFCs to see what happens when masters of striking tried to punch and kick their grappling opponents.

I was just going to suggest this.

Do some "homework."
Go to your local video store and rent any of these Utimate Fighting Championship tapes. Pay close attention to Royce Gracie's fights. Royce gave the entire Martial Arts community a RUDE awakening with his grappling prowess. It sure woke me up! I had the honor to meet Royce at a local seminar after training at a local chapter school, and all I can say is, no one has revolutionized the Arts since Bruce Lee.

I know... most critics of the UFC and other NHB events claim that they don't accurately replicate "real" street fights. All I can say is, you can't get any closer than this without going out and getting your @$$ kicked on the street until you learn what really works.

Seriously, check it out.
 
Skorzeny,

I'm done here. You know, every one of your posts start with a "sigh" and "you don't understand." Then the rest of it is this martial art does this then BJJ does that and finishes off in quick fashion and nothing else can stand against BJJ. ( I know, this summary just proves I don't understand what you're talking about again).
I do understand what I face in the real world, and what I need to do to ensure my safe return home at the end of my day. I hope your BJJ seves you well.

I'm out. T

By the way, I have seen most of the UFC tapes. I agree Joyce is impressive. But like you said it's not real life. I'm not saying it's not dangerous but #1 there are rules and #2 both parties are agreeing to fight.

By the way skorzeny, if you don't mind me asking, what is your occupation?
------------------
If not you, then who?

[This message has been edited by tprT (edited October 06, 2000).]
 
trpt and Skorzeny,
Obviously we do hold some ideas in common, but the main thought is we all learn from our experiences and we should continue to learn until we move on to our greater reward.
Just as there are many cars, there are many martial arts styles. We have many choices and depending on where we live, we might have access to many methods of martial arts or maybe to one...and even that is on a part time basis.
Human nature...we rely on what we know works for us. When the crunch occurs, we fall back on what works (for us)...this is why many of us continue to add to our arsenal while trying to keep it simple. If we are not confident in our techniques, we are tentative in its application.
When it comes down to it, almost all practice is a sport to a certain extent because we know that our opponent in the school,dojo,kwoon,boxing ring, etc..will not kill us(at least not in class). We have rules, and "forbidden" techniques because we would soon not have anyone to practice with...too many injuries and where do you hide all the bodies?
In the street, we have no guarantee...in fact, more often or not we are assured that our opponent will try to kill us with everything he can get his hands on. And when you get jumped, it is usually with more than one guy and often with some kind of weapon in their hands. (My experiences and the experiences of quite a few people.)
So we try to practice as realistically as possible to find out what works for us. Back to full circle.
B.L. said< " I started out on the path of learning and found that a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch...I practiced and practiced and practiced to come to the point in (his) life to find out that a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch." And that comes from a man who many in this world considered an accomplished martial artist.

We are all on our pathes, maybe different ways to get to the same place, but we arre trying to reach that place...in that we are brothers.

That makes at least three places that we share commonality and in that we are brothers. Peace, brothers.
 
tprT:

I sigh, because I deal with this a lot. I've dealt with this unwillingness to try something new from A LOT of martial artists and non-martial artists.

If I could count with my fingers the number of Tae Kwon Do practitioners, Karateka, boxers, etc. etc. who say that grappling techniques are not effective or necessary for self-defense and continue to bury their heads in sand, I'd have a lot of fingers, indeed (certainly enough to be a lab subject)!

If my frustration shows through, it's not really meant for you and, for that, I apologize. You are really the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

It's one thing if people gain some modicum of experience in a grappling system and then critically analyze it (strengths and weaknesses), but often the critiques or dismissals are based on non-existent or superficial understanding of a grappling-based martial art. Too many folks require DIRECT and PERSONAL experience to finally "see" it. I guess I get frustrated by that, because I follow Prinz von Bismarck's motto that "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I prefer to learn from those of others."

BTW, I want to make it clear that I don't hold BJJ as the be-all, end-all of martial arts. As I emphasized before, a lot depends on the context of what techniques are used in what situations. I don't even practice BJJ much anymore (I practice more Shooto, aka Shoot wrestling, now a days). I also train in Muay Thai and Arnis (mostly knife combatives) on top of firearms training (AND PT based on Pavel Tsatsouline's methods - he is a former PT coach for Soviet Spetznaz).

Anyway, good luck to you and hopefully I haven't turned you away from checking out some grappling (BJJ, non-Olympic Judo, Sambo, Catch wrestling etc.) in the future. I haven't forgotten that you are one of the good guys (LEO).

Ah, as for my occupation, I work in an investigative capacity in the defense industry and let's just leave it at that.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Jumping in a little late... but here goes. This is more to the grappling debate than the original question. First off, let me say that I think BJJ is a fine martial art and has demonstrated ample evidence that is worthy of serious study as part of a well-rounded eclectic system.

However, I can think of 2 common scenarios right off (and I'm sure there are others) when you would *not* want to go to the ground.

First: Several of his friends exit the bar, or round the corner, or hear his yells for help, or whatever. Very shortly, everyone's using your head for World Cup practice.

Second: Your opponent is carrying a tactical folder. Suddenly, you have 4" of steel in your kidney.

BJJ seems like an effective system providing it's an unarmed conflict against one person. The scope of it's effectiveness is limited, depending entirely upon context. And that's why grappling is just a part of an overall defensive package (unarmed, sticks, knives and guns).

One last thought. I've heard it said (by someone who ought to know) that anyone skilled in both BJJ and knife would make for a truly scary opponent. Hmmm... now if the tables were turned and *you* were the one with the folder? :)
 
Here is my .02 cents on the issue of grappling as a legitimate part of the self defense instruction: In my youth I participated in karate instruction but judo attracted me because it was real hands on stuff. Judo will put muscle mass on faster than weight lifting. The muscle will be built for endurance as well as power and will be developed more fully. Then again, I was taught by Koreans. Their workouts are extremely tough. Anyway, when I started judo my best benchpress was 200 lbs.. After one year of judo, I was able to bench 215 for 5 reps. And this with nothing but judo. No weight lifting. Also, after that year, I was able to power up my own body weight (166lbs.)
straight up over my head. It was not a strict military lift. It was just getting it up with all my might. So, the benefit of the wrestling martial arts is tremendous. It definitely packs on power, endurance and speed. Having said that, I do not claim judo to be superior to, say, karate. Both styles compliment each other in the street. Attacks generally start off with distance and then break down into wrestling. During the distance phase, karate and similar arts are superior. During the wrestling phase, judo and similar arts are superior.

But now I'm 52. The muscles are gone. The injuries are coming back to haunt me. My endurance is shot. I work 12-13 hours a day. The bod is just worn out. What I recommend for those who have not had any martial arts training and are over the hill is to seek a class (best) or watch a video (next best)that teaches practical easy to learn self defense. Then take it home and visualize the techniques taught. I don't recommend a formal martial arts school at this stage of our lives. But for us, the first line of defense is a gun, then a knife or club and finally hand to hand. Get that permit to carry! What are the odds of me at 52 overcoming some strong 19 year old attacker with a weapon? Not too good, even knowing what I know. So, be smart and get the concealed handgun permit.

[This message has been edited by Solomon (edited October 16, 2000).]
 
Okay, so this threadis already obscenely long, but I can't resist
bringing in another element.

For starters, I'm a 19 year old male, 5'10", about 155lbs. So, I'm an
average sized guy in okay shape (I was a distance runner and distance
swimmer in high school, but have been lazy in 2 years of college).

I started studying Aikido a couple months ago. I'll skip all the
stuff about what grappling really means, how easy it is to quickly
break limbs, how any inexperienced person can be made to surrender or
die in a matter of tenths of seconds, etc...

The issue I want to discuss is this: possibly the most important thing
I've learned is how to TAKE blows, grabs, locks, etc. (known to us as
"Ukemi" or "the art of being thrown")

What do you do if you're thrown? most people would go "AGH!" and
tighten their muscles instinctively, fearing pain. This is, in fact,
exactly the opposite response that you want to minimize damage. You
want to relax, be fluid, and maximize the amount of time of impact
with a roll or a slap if possible.

These habits (and I call them habits, not techniques, since you can't
just see it and do it; yopu have to train your muscles) can be applied
to pretty much any situation. If you trip down the stairs, or you
crash on your bicycle, or some crack-crazed BG throws you over a bar
table... You can change something which would give you a concussion
and internal bleeding into moderate brusiing and a bit of dizziness.

Also important are issues like simply understanding how your body
moves when under duress.

We always say "pick a gun for self defense, then practice, practice,
practice!" We often suggest learning from experts in the CCW world.
This applies even more so to your body: practice moving your body, and
learn from people that study these things.

I could say more, but this is already too long. besides, I have to
leave for practice soon...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top