Martial arts and kicks above the waist question

Mr. Wright:

You seem to suggest that you can get out of any "Gracie" holds or locks. In fact, in one of your posts, you state that quite explicitly.

I don't know how much exposure to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Sambo you have, but I can assure you that if a BJJ practitioner has you correctly backmounted, with the hooks in and is controlling one of your arms, you will pass out in about three seconds from a rear naked choke (due to constriction of the blood flow to your head as opposed to strangulation from lack of oxygen).

You say that you studied the "Gracie" system. What exactly did you do to study it? It sounds like you watched a few tapes (extremely basic tapes at that). If not, who was your instructor and where was the location? It appears to me that the only people who make the kind of "those Jiu-Jitsu locks don't work on me" talk are those who've only dealt with BJJ with tapes or against "instructors" with cliff-notes knowledge of grappling).

I trained with a couple of professional fighters in grappling. They fight in cages for fun (not something I want to do, but hey, to each his own). Once a very large man walked into their training session. He was extremely large and muscular (he looked about 6'4" and 250lbs.;one of the instructors weighs 150-160lbs. depending on whether or not he competes) and claimed that he studied boxing and wrestling for years and that "none of those Jiu-Jitsu locks and stuff work on me." He challenged the diminutive instructor for a fight. He tapped about thirty times in five minutes and left with his tail tucked between his legs.

I, too, with my limited knowledge and training, have had a challenge fight with an instructor of a "leathal self-defense system combining Jujutsu, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do and boxing." The moment I brought him down, he turned his back (despite all his "full contact standup sparring" and static technique practices) and tried to get up. I mounted him, sank my hooks in, immobilized him, then elbowed his neck a couple of times. Then I choked him and he tapped.

I am all for cross-training. I am all for "street-leathal" techniques. I couldn't care less about belts or uniforms or ranks (I train in Vale Tudo - BJJ with no Gi and with strikes).

I have yet to see a more effective one-on-one, unarmed combat system (meaning no multiple attackers or weapons).

Now, I don't know much about SCARS (I've only seen a few techniques, which appeared to be curiously similar to Japanese Jujutsu and Chinese Sui-Chiao techniques), but if anyone from SCARS is interested in making a quick $100,000 and proving the effectiveness of the system, he can march himself to a BJJ academy in Torrance, CA and say "I can get out of any of these Gracie locks and holds."

Skorzeny


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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
To Eskrimador1 and Skorenzy, good posts!

To both, as I mentioned in my way too long post, SCARS is a distilled (IMO) system that takes the best (scientific) of many styles, codifies them, makes them more easily teachable and duplicatable, and presents it in a (IMO) much better package. As I get older, (and you two will experience this to some extent if you haven't already) my back is getting worse, and there are many things from Karate, Judo, Aikido, Kung Fu, and all the other great stuff that I can no longer execute faithfully. SCARS fills in the gaps.

Skorenzy, the refences were not a challenge to the Gracies but to a fuller understanding of what is happening here. First of all, Jerry and his team went to Brazil to study with the Gracies and observe first hand, from the originators, how grappling was done the right way. The folks at SCARS had nothing bad whatsoever to say about the Gracies or the way they were treated when they were studying there. They consider them friends, and their visit was a cordial exchange of ideas as I recall.

As I remeber it, the Gracies start out holding in a "high" position to, for lack of a better term, encourage the combatant to do likewise. Then, while you're in a realitively high position, they dive and take you down.(I know that is a simplistic description, but for brevity, it serves the purpose here)
I will have to check my notes from the class, but there were several things that the Gracies would not let you do when sparring. Without making this post extra long, some of these things, IMO, would surely limit what could be done to you. Well, to be fair, when someone was trying to take me down and really try to hurt, cripple or kill me, there wasn't any rule book or referee. Am I making sense? Right. I know they were reasonably trying to reduce injuries, but when it also substantially changes the combat equation, then we don't have an acurate picture of combat. Right?
Just as a quick example, if I were allowed to do a real eye gouge (I'm talking popping the eye completely) or crush your larynx( I mean really crushing it),or, ouch, crushing one of your balls while wrestling around, it would change the equation. It's like having someone shooting at you with Simunitions versus an inanimate paper target.

There are moves (several) in SCARS that prevent someone getting you into a knockout situation. As a funny aside, The first time I tried to prevent someone tackling me, I had a brain hiccup, got run over by this speeding bullet nicknamed "Little Tony", and was knocked out along with a good whiplash.(in class)

Anyhow, as mentioned in some of the tapes and covered in detail in the class, a lot of stuff that one might presume would "beat" SCARS, are things that, when somewhat proficient in SCARS, one would not find themselves in. Aha! True, someone who is HIGHLY skilled in martial arts would keep you busy, but part of the system is "luring" them,if you will, into complancency.(some moves, not all) That is on the tapes, but you have to watch closely for it. It works even if your agressor is anticipating you doing something. Some of this stuff is happening on a subconscious level, and works regardless.

I remember someone asking Jerry during a break about Steven Seagal and his relatively
high level of skill. Jerry indicated that someone with a skill level of Seagal could take care of themselves, even without SCARS. That's what is so great about these folks.
They are so different from the "my conjones are bigger than yours" group that one finds so frequently in many martial arts crcles. When someone in class ( some very, very skilled in Kung Fu and other arts) would have a question or doubt the validity of SCARS, the instructors would patiently go over the particulars, to the student's satisfaction, with out talking down to them, or making them feel stupid. What a difference. All science and techniques without the macho BS.

Eskrimador1, as to efiiciency and jabs, you'll have to look at the current tapes in detail. One picture is worth a thousand words. The SCARS system assumes reduced efficiency in a real battle, and makes it part of your effective battle plan. I type too much on these posts as it is, and to get into the details would answer your questions, but bust the bandwidth, I'm afraid.
Or, better yet, if you don't mind, e-mail me directly with a phone number, and I will be glad to answer any questions to any level detail that I am educated at on the SCARS system. All of these questions are legitimate ones, and they are answered wsith SCARS.

Please e-mail...

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David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit
 
Wow. Didn't mean to start all of this. SCARS sounds interesting, but since I'm mostly interested in finding a way to get in shape, a quick learn system without a lot of Dojo time involved wouldn't really suit me.

I'm curious though, can you describe maybe one move or series of moves from the SCARS system? Why can't I take a SCARS class here locally? Does this Jerry guy have a patent or something? I'm not too keen on watching videos.

Haven't got around to going to Roy Harris' Dojo, but I've heard good things. I'll keep you guys posted.
 
Jack99:

I don't know Roy Harris personally, but from all that I've heard, he appears to be a very very good instructor and a good human being.

From I can understand, his outstanding traits are:

1. Very experienced and skilled in a variety of martial arts (I think he studied several over the past 20 years) including Jeet Kune Do and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

2. Very intellectual and analytical (he writes many polished and analytical articles about martial arts training, mechanics of techniques, teaching issues and etc.).

3. Very friendly and loyal (he is very informal and does not use "sir," "sensei," "master," etc. etc.).

4. He still fights/competes (the NHB world is buzzing with his upcoming grappling bout with Vernon White of the Lion's Den).

5. He gears his training toward "street fight" or self-defense rather than tournaments or sports. I believe that he teaches law enforcement and the miliary as well as civilians.

6. He still learns himself. He trains still with Sifu Dan Inosanto of JKD and Joe Moreira of BJJ.

I think that he has a website (http://www.royharris.com/index.html).

Again, I don't know the man, but everyone I've spoken to about him had nothing but high praises. He is the kind of a guy that I'd love to train under. If he has a school near you, you ought to definitely stop by and check it out.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Mr. Wright:

First of all, thanks for your calm way of debating. I guess that I got a bit worked up with my last post to you. However, I do feel that it was something of a challenge for you to state that you can get out of any "Gracie" hold or lock. I think that a statement like that is somewhat preposterous.

Again, I don't know how much BJJ training Jerry had in Brazil, but sports BJJ and Vale Tudo ("anything goes") are completely different things. A lot of outsiders don't seem to realize that.

For example, in sports BJJ, the closed guard position (where one is on the bottom but has his legs locked around the opponent's waist on top) is utilized to a great extent. In Vale Tudo, the open guard is used rather than the closed guard. Furthermore, many Vale Tudo fighters even discourage the use of the guard altogether (why, because one can eat punches in a real fight, that's why).

Once I was practicing the knee-on-stomach position with someone (slowly) and he said, "hey, I can grab or punch your groin from here." This is a common criticism among strikers about the knee-on-stomach position whenever they see it.

So, we tried an experiment. I would put on gloves, put my friend in knee-on-stomach position and he would try to attack my groin.

We started. He never got the chance. I ended up pummeling him in the face and his hands were busy protecting his face. I actually arm-barred him when he tried to protect himself and he stretch his arm out (I did a reverse/opposite side armbar by swinging around his head).

One has to understand that in Vale Tudo, ground grappling is combined with striking (usually from the ground with punches, knees and elbows). The idea behind Vale Tudo/NHB BJJ is to attain a superior position and, often by striking, to force the defender to make a mistake (stretching the arm out to defend himself, turning over, giving the leg to protect himself) which then can be utilized to finish the fight with a technique (a choke, an armbar, a heel hook, etc.).

In such a situation, even if the opponent can avoid the finishing attempt, he would still be in an inferior position and can be forced to make more mistakes.

One really cannot appreciate the full effectiveness of BJJ/Vale Tudo until one fights for real (or a challenge match, which I suppose is a bit more controlled, especally before and after the "fight") and at full-speed. Techniques which you think may be able to be countered cannot be countered very easily with fists and elbows flying everywhere.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Jack99, if you really want to get aerobic benefits and learn a self defense system at the same time, IMO, SCARS is not for you.

I believe Jerry wants to be careful who teaches what out there and wants true "quality control" as well as who learns this stuff. I don't know what his plans are regarding this. As far as moves, one of my easy favorites, is when someone pins you against a wall. We tried to mess this up or resist it, but it still worked. Doesn't matter if they are choking you, pinning you with a baton, whatever. Just start sliding sideways along the wall. The more they try to force you to stay against the wall, the faster you break out of the hold. It's hilarious. This works on brick, cinderblock, whatever. Yes, you will destroy your shirt, but, you get away. Doesn't matter how big or strong they are.
Another great one is to get someone really big (300+ pounds) and have them sit on your chest or abdomen while you are laying down, and as a bonus, have them pin down your arms as well by sitting on them or holding them. In one quick move, thrust your hips up like you're trying to mate with them, and push up on their achilles heels or actual heels. They will get tossed off you fairly quickly. Seeing it is better than reading this, but, once again, it works. I'm 6"-4", at 250 pounds, and my 57 pound 4 year old can do it to me every time. Yes, I try to keep him from doing it, and it still works. Try it. If it doesn't work, we're missing something. E-mail me.
By the way, if you go with another system, you certainly couldn't go wrong with studying with Inosanto or Harris. If it weren't for SCARS, Inosanto or Harris would probably be my very first choice. I may go visit Inosanto some time anyway.

Skorzeny, Vale Tudo is another kettle of fish entirely and I believe effective. Here's the problem though as I see it from a practical side.(for many other styles)

First, fitness level. VT is not for folks with back problems or a long list of other, real world things that can and do happen as you get older. Age affects everyone and in time something will probably restrict you too. ;)

Second, my long experience has been that real criminals don't tend to discipline themselves in a martial art to a high level of skill. It can happen, but it's not my personal experience. Criminals are lazy by nature. That's why they steal, Right? Also, I have seen too many bad guys that have a reputation for having some high proficiency of martial arts training, (even grappling) get taken down, and taken to jail. Some of these guys were HUGE, with huge muscles, and VERY fast, yet, into the cruiser they went. Yes, this even happened when it was just one police officer, not using mace, pepper spray or anything.

Third, when in very, very tight quarters, in a unfamiliar environment with furniture or junk all around, your choices can be limited if your technique requires a little more space to dance.

It's probably my fault, but these posts still seem focused on techniques and not the full dynamics of a fight as handled by SCARS.
As far as grappling issues are concerned, I simply brought up the ways of breaking some of the finishing holds, because to many, some of those holds cannot be countered.
1. SCARS (and some other systems) can counter them.
2. When doing it halfway right, you really shouldn't get into a fix like that in the first place.
3. When you learn to "read a person", and with proper verbal and nonverbal cues make them relax, they really won't get a chance to throw fists and elbows at you at warp speed.
Read this next section carefully.

This is the most fascinating and important thing about this system. I focused so long on technique, I almost missed it. In fact, my brother caught it first.
You can see this on the tapes, but he really doesn't get into it unless you go to the class. This part alone would put you way ahead with whatever system you chose. Jerry's on to something, and he knows what he is talking about. He went into it in class, about what is going on in your opponent's mind at various stages of the battle, and how you can anticipate it and somewhat control it. I can't divulge more than that.
This is not psychobabble BS. It works. And the sweetest part of the deal, is that all humans exhibit exactly the same functions and actions/reactions regardless of training or fitness level. Sober or stoned. Are you catching on to what I'm saying? How well would your system of choice work, if you could accurately anticipate and somewhat control what they were doing? Think about that a minute. There may be similar things out there, but SCARS, IMHO, can get you there much quicker. The best way to counter a blindingly fast set of moves is to end the fight before it gets to that.

I understand were you are coming from, I believe. I spent decades working long and hard to get a edge, and here comes this guy looking like Drake the magician, complete with black clothes, the goatee and similar gonzo marketing that the other "invincible fighting technique" of the week guys use, with the appropriate SEALS stuff and all these claims.

I don't know what you are looking for, but I sense you a looking for something. Perhaps an extra edge? Check this SCARS stuff out. Look at it objectively, long and hard, and remember what I said about the mind stuff. Enough of it is in the tapes if you look carefully to understand what I'm saying.

If it's not for you, get your money back.

I have to ask a smart question. What is your self defense strategy going to be when you get old enough not to do some of those moves you enjoy now? Lower backs are funny things.... :) :)

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David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit
 
Mr. Wright:

I do not mean to be offensive, but from your post, it is quite clear to me that your understanding of BJJ/Vale Tudo is extremely limited.

I say that because you seem to emphasize the role that weight and muscular strength play in what you call "grappling." If you have any understanding of BJJ, you will realize that most decent schools and instructors of BJJ emphasize technique over muscle/weight (Kano Jigoro's "maximum effect, minimum effort"). In fact, most BJJ practitioners pride themselves in being able to handle heavier, stronger opponents. Helio Gracie is 85, but can still control and beat just about anyone (heck he even catches Rickson Gracie, his son and the Gracie family champion, if the latter "naps" for a few seconds).

That is also the reason why I got into BJJ because I got tired of bigger and stronger guys (with less skill than me) beating me in other martial arts. Even though I studied Tae Kwon Do for over 10 years, at 170lbs., I could not keep up with an extremely muscular 225lbs. guy from beating me in full-contact matches in Tae Kwon Do.

In BJJ, I routinely beat guys (with less skill than me), who are, compared to me, just humongous. Heck, my wife, who is 5'4" and weighs 115lbs. (she trains with me occassionally) can beat a lot of guys who are 6+' and 200+lbs if they have less skill than she does (she is, by the way, quite skillful with triangular chokes and leg locks). In fact, she has an advantage, because she has small limbs and is very, very hard to catch.

We (BJJ practitioners) go to the ground, because we consider the element of the ground like water - it equalizes weight factors. Leverage may not be everything, but it sure is much of it in BJJ.

The "simple" technique you described in escaping a mount is a common, old Jujutsu technique that some call "upa" or "oompa." It used to be taught quite widely in Jujutsu, but no self-respecting modern BJJ or Vale Tudo instructor will teach it much anymore. The reason: it can be countered very, very easily and can also lead to a painful leg submission for the person performing the oompa (see, as someone pointed out before, BJJ is constantly evolving; oompa is now considered "old" Jiu-Jitsu).

Try these:

1. Next time, have your partner mount you, then have him sink the hooks in (grapevine both legs from outside your legs into the crook of your knees). Then, have him hold your neck (from left side in) with his left arm. Then have him stretch out his right arm and base himself 45 degree to the upper right corner. Have him then put his head to the right side of your head (left side from your point of view). Try oompaing out of that one. He can stay there all day and strike your head/left ear.

2. When you try to do the oompa and hook one of his heels, have your partner kick the heel out 45 degrees. You now have knee compression. Your partner pulls it gently with one hand, and your knee breaks.

One of the great benefits of BJJ/Vale Tudo is dynamic training. We can grapple "full-force" and learn to deal with moving, dynamic opponents while performing submissions 95% strength (extra 5% being necessary to actually break elbows, knees, heels and whatnot). A lot of styles teaching deadly techniques are very good, but unless you can practice those repeatedly against a moving, dynamic, resisting opponent, you will not really be able to use them in a high-stress situation effectively.

Sorry for the long post. My two bits.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Eskrimador1, there certainly is no shame in running. I've done it before, and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

Skor, read my post again. I only bring up strength as a measure of relative effectiveness of some of the SCARS moves.

Some of the guys in my class had a lot more muscle than I, and it was interesting to all of us that even though one can "sometimes" work around a technique with brute strength, it doesn't work here. Also, One does not have to have all of this warp speed for it to work. That's the best part of all.

And, the big point I believed you missed, was how un-skilled most of the average criminals are. I don't know how many bad guys you have brought down and helped put into a police cars, but I stand on my experience, not speculation.Street experience beats dojo speculation every time. ;) At your present skill level, you are probably WAY over trained to handle the average bad guy. You are trained to fight a very skilled fighter, and that's way enough for the streets.(that's a good thing to have) :)

It makes me wonder what some people are training for. Many I know could easily handle(if they had any grappling skills at all)almost all, if not all of the normal encounters.
Keep in mind, I am not trying to change your mind. If you're really satisfied with what you do, I am delighted for you. If it works for you, then what anybody says doesn't matter. We can throw around statistics all day, but it has no meaning. I don't have all of the details of what you do with your system, and you don't fully understand mine.
That's o.k. by me. If you don't buy what I am saying, it matters not in the slightest. :)

The only people I am trying to reach, are those that are looking for somthing better. In my opinion, SCARS is. Enough people(civilians, LEO's and military) with impressive skills from many systems have been through the SCARS facility, that if it WAS inferior, I would have heard about it, especially during our after-class discussions long into the night. Do you understand?

If mystery ex-SEALS or self important gurus on another post want to badmouth SCARS, well, people tend to fall back on what they do best. So be it. It speaks volumes on them, and it's not good. In stark contrast, Jerry personally doesn't go there. That speaks volumes also. Right?

As far as trying some of the moves you where suggesting, you missed my point again in the last post. This sort of thing can get into the "what if" mania, and is not the domain of professional fighters.

1. If you do SCARS right, the other guy (gal?) won't have a chance to do the things you describe.

2. The odds that your average bad guy is going to be that skilled are rare if almost non-existent.

3. For the relative time invested in SCARS that would bring a person to any given skill level we can come up with, I have seen nothing better. Period. The moves you suggested have a level of detail that would take some time to master. Most of the SCARS stuff can be nailed down quickly. If you were new to learning fighting skills, what would you want? I will say that pinning down the mind aspect of it was slower for me. The moves still worked, of course, but some of the deeper meaning was lost to me for awhile.

By the way, we do use "dynamic, agressive, noncompliant" etc. partners, and SCARS still works. Flailing arms, elbows, knees, groins, earlobes, fingers and all. But, we must train REALISTICALLY, musn't we? If I had a dollar for every time someone suggested something involving guns or tactics at this site, that I know from experience doesn't work... ;)

I'm not trying to be a ass here, but that's as plain as I can make it. Sure, it's also possible for a 747 to land on my house, but I don't have any real plans for it if it happens. Training with someone who has 20 black belts, titles out the wazoo and can wrestle 20 men to the ground, all the while quoting Shakespear, has some benefit, but is not reality based training. And, as has happened to me before, someone always comes along and issues a thinly disguised challenge basically saying I can beat you with my system, doesn't get it either. The pros avoid that kind of stuff.

Sad to say, some people I used to respect(and buy their product) here and on other posts, fall into this childish trap. Do I want to do business or listen to someone that has the emotional control of a 12 year old? Not for me. Not even if they have a superior product.
If they are invovled in some aspects of the deadly arts, yet can't control their emotions, why on earth would anyone listen to them? ;)

Something else was brought up frequently in the class. Many students,(none of the LEO's, by the way) were " What iffing" everything to death. As the instructors patiently explained (and the LEO's verifyed over and over and over again)many things that some folks train for and think will happen, either don't happen at all, or so very rarely, it's not worth wasting your time. This, in my experience, happens way too often in dojos. Maybe some of the things taught, are not really needed? ;)

Beyond that, that's all I have to say on this. You will have to call(or e-mail) SCARS and ask them questions. I'm confident that they are well familiar with your system,
and can tell you what you need to know.

Good luck with your training.

------------------
David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit
 
Heck, running works for me, too. I'm all for track & field!

Unfortunately, sometimes I cannot run away (for example, if someone attacks my wife or if someone insults her honor, etc. etc.).

Mr. Wright: you are absolutely right that many stylists are over-trained for street encounters IF AND ONLY IF we are dealing with common hoodlum or a criminal (that's the police perspective as you stated).

Unfortunately, some troublesome street thug types are not necessarily looking to steal or mug, but to prove how tough they are. With these types of experienced street fighters, many traditional techniques won't work (forget Tae Kwon Do, for example).

Mind you, I am not saying that SCARS does not work. All I am saying is that no matter how effective or intensive a system is, there is no way in hell that a week of training is going to make you skilled enough to deal with a street fighter as some of the SCARS ads seem to proclaim. Maybe a clueless bully, but not with an experienced street fighter.

My personal experiences are not only from the dojo. For the past ten years, I have not been involved in a single fight. My personality has changed completely, especially since I met my wife. But when I was going to school and living in NYC, I had some "issues" and got into street brawls, literally, daily (hey, I am not proud of it, but it happened). I've fought with all kinds of people: street brawlers, wrestlers, boxers, TKD practitioners, Karate-Ka, Judoka... You name it. I'd say that I won about half of the fights at most. In 99% of the fights, my opponent and I eventually went to the ground where I was clueless (in retrospect).

Both Jeet Kune Do (which I do not practice) and BJJ/Vale Tudo have tons of challenge fights and street fight experiences to them. In fact, they were shaped by them. What did not work was discarded. The counters to the "upa" that I described, for example, are not high-level skill moves. They are common in Brazil, for example, where not even chumps try to use the "upa" because it WILL result in a broken knee.

Ultimately, I haven't seen this kind of street testing doen for SCARS. BJJ schools often have open challenges to other stylists or thugs (I have a very nice video tape of a BJJ instructor fighting with, and then thoroughly destroying, a Mexican gang member, who thought he was tough and could make easy $100,000 from the academy). Whether you approve of their mentality or not, the BJJ fighters are out to prove in the streets and in the rings or in garage fights that their system is the best one-on-one, unarmed system in the world. They have been doing that for 75 years now.

When SCARS has that kind of a history of success in real fights or near-real fight NHB matches, then perhaps you should start claiming that it is the best and that you "can get out of any Gracie hold or lock easily."

At the same time, I understand that SCARS works for you and that's great. But IMHO, BJJ is still the best martial art for one-on-one, unarmed combat to study if a beginner is going to stick around more than a few weeks.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Skor, that was one of my beefs with TKD. I got my BB in it long ago, and, just about any fight, if it goes on long enough, goes to the ground! I too ,like you, in my younger years went out to "test" some things, and got two bullet holes and numerous cuts from the experience. I didn't get killed, but.... :(

I think the lack of SCARS street experience is that their focus, IMHO, is still with the military. Now that they have had the DOD contract, that's were their business is, naturally.

I do wonder about the competition aspect of it all. Offering large sums of money, albeit with a rule book and referees attached, irks me a little bit. But what can we do? I have seen a small portion of a REAL(real illegal) no-holds-barred video with no rules or refs. One of them doesn't walk away from the ring. Ever. I have seen the legal versions and although very similar, there's just something about literally fighting for your life that changes everything. No kidding.......

As far as street thugs with high levels of experience, maybe that's true in NYC.
Down in Texas, that's simply not the case.
Also, I don't make a habit of going to places where "west side story" wannabe's hang out. I carry a gun with me everywhere, and I can read folks very well. It have saved me numerous times.
Also, since I am a DPS instructor, I can't escalate confrontations like regular civilians. I have to play the nice guy, and try to walk away no matter what they say. Oh, I love that part!

Yes, I used to cruise around NYC on foot at 3-4 a.m. in the morning. More than once. On purpose. Don't ask. You still can't get good pizza by the slice down here.

I spoke with 3 BJJ practicioners that were in the first class I attended, (George was from NYC and teaches a ladies self-defense class in the area) and they have a different take than you on this stuff.

Maybe it's a lack of ability on my part to convey it in writing. Like I said before, if nothing else than for the mental part of what Jerry teaches...

Let me know if you ever hit Texas, and I'll treat you to a REAL steak. You NY boys do eat red meat still ,don't you? ;)



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David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit
 
Thanks for the invite, Mr. Wright!

I don't live in NYC anymore (which is very, very good for my health actually, seeing as how there are some folks there who would love to get their hands on me).

I live in the Midwest now, where the beef is, well, just supreme!

And, no, I can't get good pizza by the slices here either (or good Thai food for that matter)!

Keep training.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Then Thai it is. We have a dozen or so outstanding Thai restaurants....

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Devil and the deep blue sea behind me,
Vanish in the air you'll never find me...




[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 09, 1999).]
 
David:

The SCARS sounds interesting. I visited their website and I think I understand the following: It's pretty much a self-study program via their video tapes; you can travel around the country and attend various seminars they give for "one on one" inter-face with their instructors. Is this basically it, or have I missed something?

I liked what I read there...like you, I'm at the age where I don't think my lower back, etc can tolerate the regimen imposed by a traditional art as it once would.

Thanks,
Mike
 
To All:

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone who like the SCARS system, but after a detailed research, I've concluded that Jerry Petersen is a fraud of the highest order at worst and a very good salesman at best.

I've found that not only does he make outrageous claims for his sytem (that buying the extremely expensive tapes and taking his $5,000 seminar will make you unbeatable "guaranteed"), but he also basically watered-down and re-packaged Master Bill Hulsey's Kung Fu San Soo, which he does not acknowledge at all (claiming that he invented this "revolutionary system") unlike any other legitimate instructors of fighting systems who give credit to their instructors and systems.

I also found out that, basically, he suckers a lot of novices who feel uncomfortable about "Oriental" or traditional martial arts with his wild claims and an expensive advertizing campaign (spends thousands of dollars in almost every martial arts and gun magazines each month for full-page ads - yet none of these magazines had any positive review articles about SCARS).

I also heard from one Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu blue belt (that's after a white belt, so a relative beginner in BJJ) who was intrigued by SCARS and plunked down the money to attend a seminar. In all fairness, he described SCARS as a good basic (and he means B-A-S-I-C) hand-to-hand fighting training for someone with absolutely no fighting skill, but at the end of the seminar (during the "free-sparring" phase at the end), he could control pretty much and easily everybody at the seminar with his blue belt BJJ skills.

Apparently during one of these training sessions, Petersen showed how "easy" it is to defeat grapplers by having someone attempt a double-leg and then simply hit that person in the head as the person came in ("see, how easy it is?"). This obviously competely ignores the fact that grapplers often set up takedowns with low kicks, punches, knees or elbows or waits until the opponent makes the first kick or punch.

This is the same deluded notion that a lot of pure strikers still have about grappling ("hey, I can just punch him or kick him as he comes in"). You watch UFC I or II and can figure out that this type of plan did not really work out (to understate it a little).

Now, some of you might say that I should not judge it until I've taken a look at the system myself. Well, I have no intention of spending hundreds of dollars for watered-down Kung Fu San Soo tapes or several thousand dollars for a few day seminar when a large number of experienced fighters and instructors have seen the system and said that it is crap (not that these techniques are bad, but that one can learn these basic techniques much cheaper and better elsewhere).

I have been in enough fights and trained in enough styles to know what's bull****, what's for show only and what really works.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu



[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 17, 1999).]
 
Skorzeny,

I posted this on the previous thread but you probably didn't see it.

Basically, I agree with part of what you are saying and vehemently disagree with the other part.

Agree: BJJ is awesome one on one unarmed.

Disagree: BJJ is the best for a person to learn for street use.

The "best one on one unarmed" is a fatal flaw.

I have been in over thirty fights. Serious fights not schoolyard not dojo. I've fought four people in two of these and eight in another (they were unarmed-I wasn't :)) Not only won-didn't get hurt. The only fights I've lost were the three where I was jumped from behind. (I check six a LOT nowdays)

On the street, at least down here in the South, it is difficult to arrange a fight one on one unarmed. Especially the impromptu variety.

If I'm out somewhere and some dude goes to the ground with my buddy-well, it's time to kick some guy's head in.

I'm not trying to diss your art. It is formidable in its chosen arena: one on one unarmed. If a BJJ practitioner cannot guarantee those conditions then it becomes a recipe for disaster.

Ain't taking up for SCARS. I know absolutely nothing about it.
 
Dave,

I haven't been in a fight in a long, long time now. Over ten years. When I stopped repossessing and face to face collecting the opportunities seemed to dwindle :) People get upset when you back an empty truck up to their door for some reason.
 
Spartacus:

Your criticism is valid. The BJJ techniques that most people see are geared toward one-on-one unarmed fight.

Now, what about multiple opponents?

Well, BJJ has a fairly strong stand-up component that is not emphasized or shown during realty-based type competitions where, obviously, one-on-one type of techniques matter more.

BJJ stand-up techniques are almost identical to Judo and Japanese Jujutsu techniques (throws, chokes, and arm and wrist joint-manipulations, low kicks, etc. etc.). So, you are not missing out on stand-up techniques for self-defense.

But, let's talk about the multiple opponent scenario some more. If BJJ is not effective for multi-op scenarios, what martial art is? I dare you to tell me a few (TKD? Wing Chun? Shotokan Karate?). The fact is that most of these arts aren't even good for one-on-one fight let alone multiple opponents, especially if you are weaker, smaller and slower than your possibly experienced streetfighter opponent.

I'll say this again (for the 100th time). People have got to get rid of this Walter Mitty, Hollywood movie fantasy of walking into a fight (unarmed, but with steely, quiet eyes) against four experienced street brawlers, only to render them unconscious in three minutes with only a couple of scratches.

For me, any kind of martial arts system is a weapon of last ditch defense. First of all, I am going to avoid any confrontation, especially if there are more than one possible opponents. If I am ever forced to fight more than one person, you'd better believe that I am going to have a shotgun, a handgun, a knife or a stick (I do not like baseball bats as they balance poorly). The only time I would use BJJ is if someone attacks me and I cannot run away or avoid the fight. In that scenario, I would be, more likely than not, already on the ground from the tackle. Lastly, some ground grappling techniques are actually geared for multiple opponents. Sambo fighters, in particular, have excellent techniques for grappling more than one person.

I am all for cross-training. You want to be a complete fighter? Study BJJ, Muy Thai, Jeet Kune Do and boxing. If You just want to learn enough techniques to defend yourself from a street bully, a thug or a rapist, then learn BJJ (or Sambo, Catch Wrestling, etc. etc.). Stay away from something that requires a great deal of strength, flexibility, conditioning and split-second timing like Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kickboxing.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu



[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 20, 1999).]
 
Well, for one thing you seem to automatically equate martial art systems with unarmed fighting. Some aren't. Most classical jujutsu styles did not consist of empty handed techniques. The left side of the body was involved in the grappling technique while the right hand was seeking a chink in armour with the knife it held. I would personally seek a style that integrated sticks, knives, and flexible weapons into its curriculum. Canes can be carried anywhere and even lead opponents to underestimate you.

Tell you what. Take your "well rounded BJJ, Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do, Boxer martial artist. Put him up against a half ass stick fighter or Kali man with a Spyderco. I know who I'll put my money on.

Empty hand martial arts are enjoyable. I enjoy them. They are valuable as a last resort and a forlorn hope. But you better be a budo god if you think you are going to go up against a trained armed opponent and win unscathed. You'll have to be almost unbelievably good to win and wind up crippled. READ SUN TZU AND THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN. I've been reading it for thirty years. Take an old man who knows Sun Tzu in his bones. Put him up against any number of young, hot martial artists of whatever style. I know whose side I want to be on. This is not a game.

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Byron Quick
 
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