Marine Martial Arts....why not?

Skorzeny,

Examples of what? Equipment that restricts your movement? Lets see...

LBV, Rucksack, Flak Vest, LPU, SV2, G-Suit, MOPP Suit, wet suit, dry suit, cold weather gear, etc.

Need more? What's the point in it? I know what I know about H2H training in the Marine Corps, because I've been there and done it. I get the distinct impression that your knowledge (or lack thereof) comes from books and TV. I have no desire to debate the issue with you any further. Unless you are the CMC's drinking buddy, your opinion on the matter is of no consequence.
 
I think that there is one thing all of the "experts" posting here do not realize...........

To use an example, a police department/academy has the same problem, although to a much smaller scale. The task? Take a group of people who may or may not have ever fired a firearm in their lives, and somehow get them proficient enough within the small time available in the academy to not only carry their sidearm with confidence, but also proficient enough to use it to save their lives, or the lives of others.

Likewise, the defensive tactics that are taught are of the same variety--simple, easy to learn techniques that will allow the individual officer a fighting chance when they get into a hands-on situation.

The US Armed Forces, in teaching hand to hand combat, has the same problem, in spades. They have even LESS time allotted to teach than many police academies. This is balanced by the fact that police departments teach to SUBDUE, using the minimum force necessary; the Armed Forces teaches how to incapacitate or kill, going balls to the wall as needed.

Now, for those bashing MCMAP, there are a few things that you don't seem to understand. This was also stated, however in a different way, by SGTC, above.

First, unless you have experienced it or are REALLY close to someone who has, there are few things in life that are as terrifying as rolling around on the ground with someone who really, REALLY wants to HURT you. Badly. To the point of death.

How many of you folks out there have experienced the feeling of utter fear and helplessness that occurs in the first moments of an all-out attack? It literally can rob the strength from your body; this is what puts a person at extreme risk. If you do NOT overcome this terror within a second or two, your chances of surviving the attack are slim and none. I don't care what black belt you hold, or how many years of dojo experience you have.

When you experience your first real world attack, you WILL turn into a jellyfish, even if it is only for a second. You can put it in the bank, sportsfans.

Thus, the Armed Forces has a double barrier to overcome. First, the gentility that is bred into us as civilians must be eliminated. You must lose all hesitance about hurting another human being. Second, you must be taught to inflict grave bodily injury QUICKLY, with maximum effect, while under great physical strain from other sources, such as field gear, individual weapon, etc.

The ONLY branch of Service that does that well is the US Marine Corps. This sounds funny coming from a career Army NCO. But, here are the facts:

The other branches will take you and fit you in somewhere, if you have the desire to enlist.

To get into the Corps, YOU have to prove that you are worthy of training. The USMC has an entry level standard of fitness higher than any other branch of service. No exaggeration here, folks!

You must be physically able to pass the Advanced PFT in the Army BEFORE you even enlist in the Marine Corps! And believe me, waivers are few and far between.

When you go through boot, guess what? Take the normal boot camp curriculum, add parachuting, and what do you have? The US Army Ranger school. And these are everyday Marines, folks! Both men AND women. Unlike any other branch, you get absolutely NO slack for being a female.

MCMAP is an ongoing process. You learn the basics in boot camp. You continue through training, and at your duty assignment. 5 hours of PT per week? Believe me, most units in the Corps exceed that without even trying. And a LOT of it is down in the mud, face in the dirt ground fighting.

I say this without exaggeration: I was responsible for teaching soldiers how to stay alive. I trained lots of soldiers. I was very good at what I did.

I saw my son turn down $25,000 cash in bonuses from the Army to enlist in the Marine Corps.

The US Marine Corps turned a gentle 18 year old high school grad who weighed 220 lbs at entry into 170 pounds of rock hard combat steel.

I am a police officer. I have had my share of physical differences with some pukes I have encountered on patrol. As an Army NCO, I was taught how to fight and survive. As a kid, I grew up on the south side of Chicago, and fought on a regular basis. As I mentioned before, I am 6'2" and weigh right at 300 lbs. I bench 200 lb for reps, and push 500 lb on the leg press.

I have been told that I would be REALLY good at football.

My son dealt with my attack like yesterday's garbage. And, like I said before, I was NOT gentle with him, either.

So, I'm here to tell you--MCMAP works. No, it ain't glamourous. It isn't flashy. And, you don't train in a dojo, either.

But it will save your life, and bring you home to your family. And in the end, that's what counts.
 
fix:
LBV, Rucksack, Flak Vest, LPU, SV2, G-Suit, MOPP Suit, wet suit, dry suit, cold weather gear, etc.
You keep avoiding my question. I would like you to find me some examples when any form of unarmed fighting training has been demonstrated to be...
Effective on the battlefield when loaded down with equipment that restricts your movement.
... to the extent that it should be taught to those other than "special" troops (MPs, Special Forces, etc.). Again, my argument isn't that these are completely useless - it is rather that since unarmed combat rarely if ever occurs for "normal" troops, the time is spent better otherwise - it's odd to me that troops nowadays get very little training time with pistols while spending time on H2H based on the claim that there might be CQBs.
I get the distinct impression that your knowledge (or lack thereof) comes from books and TV.
And you'd be wrong.
I have no desire to debate the issue with you any further. Unless you are the CMC's drinking buddy, your opinion on the matter is of no consequence.
Having failed to answer my question, dismiss me. That's fine - shows how lacking your arguments are (I suppose in YOUR OWN lack of knowledge, anyone who is not a drinking buddy of CMC would be "of no consequence" - shows how little you know of how programs and equipment are adopted).

Powderman:

Police and military have (or should have) different missions and different philosophies regards to use of deadly violence, which makes it more plausible for the former to spend their valuable, and limited, training time on unarmed fighting.

SGTC:
The reason is that the ROK Marines were, justifiably, feared for their hand to hand abilities.
Having worked extensively with the ROK forces, I can tell you that such was NOT the reason why they were feared. They were feared during Vietnam due to their ability to retaliate against civilian population with measures that were, and are, unthinkable for the US forces. Where there were ambushes against ROK forces, there was not another later - because ROK pacified the villages and areas near which such ambushes occurred (and which presumably aided such ambushes).
However, how often are we found in police actions instead of war. The correct term is Military operations other than war (MOOTW), but the result is the same.
So far, this is the most articulate, yet succinct defense I've seen of unarmed fighting training.

The issue of MOOTW is, though, a whole another bag of discussions, isn't it?

Skorzeny
 
I can think of a dozen things that the military trains for that they've never encountered in combat to date. Does that mean we should wait until after it happens to prepare for it???

it's odd to me that troops nowadays get very little training time with pistols while spending time on H2H based on the claim that there might be CQBs.

Why is it so odd? 90% of todays troops are not going to be carrying a pistol. They have Rifles, bayonets, knives and then it's just the hands. Therefore, H2H takes precedence over pistol training. On the issue of the CMC's involvement...the Corps is very small. Very few things happen that the CMC and his immediate staff are not fully aware of.

I apologize for my tone earlier. We're just simply not going to see eye to eye on this issue.
 
In defense of unarmed fighting training...

I'll try to keep it short and before anyone gets excited let me say that all of my older male relatives have served in the armed forces, father made full bird in USMC (infantry), so if any of the below comes off as anti Marine, lets pass on the flames.

In the late 80s and early 90s I did a lot of running around on the streets of Oceanside, CA at night. For those not familiar, Oceanside is the closest city south of Camp Pendleton. O'side is a notorious place (or was back then) for drugs, gangs, prostitution, etc. Also a place where Marines from Pendleton would go to have a good time on the weekends.

It suffices to say that I was witness to no less than 8 fights between the Marines and locals in the area, most of whom were hobos that claimed to be Crips, probably so they wouldn't get messed with. Anyhow, all but one of those fights the local ended up giving the Marine the beat down. The one Marine that one the fight that I saw had a black silk jacket with an embroidered dragon with the big OKINAWA letters on it.

He actually stepped in on a fight because the local "gang" guy had outjabbed a Marine, tripped him and was starting to put some serious hurt on him (repeated punches from a halfmount, both were clueless about groundfighting and it showed). Everyone got pissed (5 or so marines, only 1 local guy) and said for the guy to stop but he didn't, so the Okinawa guy shoved him off. Local guy was like 6'3" and probably 175 or so. Marine took off jacket, got into deep karate stance. Local guy came in jabbing and Marine did a spinning heel kick to local's grill. KO on the spot.

All the other fights the Marines were pretty much fighting just like you see in high school or hockey fights. Left hand clinching, right hand doing the pounding. They all ended up getting out pounded.

Now keep in mind that some hard core training goes on at Pendleton. Sniper school, maybe some BUDs stuff? Mom's boyfriend was enlisted in 1st MEU (was IMAF back then) and did some dummy ordinance stuff in the harbor at Del MAr so I know there was BUD stuff going on. I digress. Suffice to say that they had to have HTH training.

Flash forward to Arizona, last three or so years. Two of my buddies have never trained in MMA, but I have showed them a thing or two and yes they have seen those "unrealistic" UFCs, etc.

Well, one of them was in two fights and the other in one fight, all separate incidents against gangmembers. Not the hobo type but the hardcore tattooed "whassap ese?" type. All three fights ended up in the clinch, buddies got the mount and then made hamburger out of their opponents (all of whom instigated the fight, one even suckerpunched a friend out of the blue, grabbed his girlfriends er... rear).

Sorry for the long post. My points:

- MMA works on the street. Nothing can be effective 100% of the time, but it won the fights for my buds.

- Marines, I haven't heard of CQC in "war" that involved HTH or knife fighting. Ever. BUT, Marines are people that go out into the world also and can get into fights when not at "war." They can get beaten up stabbed shot mugged, whatever. I would say that in the best interest of the Corps that they should be incorporating MMA style techniques, to save their troops cans on the street, if anything. Very lucky that the fights I witnessed in Oside didn't end up worse.
 
I don't understand why anyone would think that training soldiers and Marines to fight would be a problem. Maybe you think they should attend LTG Claudia "Hillary Clone" Kennedy's "Consideration For Others" training instead? Would that be a better use of their time?
Even if they never actually use the hand to hand training, it still can serve as physical and mental conditioning, it will still build a person's confidence in their ability to cope, there will still be esprit and morale advantages, and only a Clintonite would think that putting military personnel through aggresiveness training was a bad idea!
In 20 years, 3 months, and 3 days of Army service the most fun training I went through was the 7th Infantry Division (Light)'s Rites of Passage--hand to hand--I felt the other guy's garrotte for 2 weeks, but he told ne the same--bayonet, demo... It was GREAT!!!
 
Reading D. W.'s post, I realized that no one has mentioned it yet, but the "Consideration For Others" training is built INTO the MCMA program. Take a look at the training hours breakdown, it should be on the website that SGT C provided. Remember one of the design goals for the MCMA program is to inculcate certain warrior values into our young marines, values that they are not bringing with them from life experience. [If we don't train our children, the government will do it for us. Any bets on who can do a better job of it?]
 
Quoth Gomez:
...the "Consideration For Others" training is built INTO the MCMA program
PLEASE tell me you're kidding!
Or at least that the Marines hae something called the same but that isn't so Mr Rogers Touchy-Feely "First Sergeant's gonna puke" as the Army's COOT!
 
I've just seen the Marine Corp Martial Arts Site. I haven't seen any of the tecnniques yet to be sure of it. But, the " Character Development" list reeks suspiciously of your niehborhood Mc Dojo meddleing as well as the inclusiuon of your of all the politically correct programs in this training to get budget $$$ from Congress for it exist.


IMHO

What has my Military come too. I harken back to the days when we just had the Russians, and North Koreans to worry about. And, your simple mission as a Soldier was to kill people, and break things without all the Politically Correct B.S. that comes with it nowadays.
 
Marine took off jacket, got into deep karate stance. Local guy came in jabbing and Marine did a spinning heel kick to local's grill. KO on the spot.

Guess that guy never heard that kicks, especially high spinning kicks, don't work in street fights. What was he thinking!? :cool:

Matt
 
I have always belived that CORE values were to be installed in Basic Training by a good DS.

INMHO

I think the Drill Seargents nowadays aren't allowed to break down, and get the "Society" out of recruits, like they used to. Hence, all the Scandals.

If we wanted to get good CORE values in our recruits, we should have Full Metal Jacket video tapes passed out enmasse to all Drill Seargants as a training manual for them on what a perfect DS looks like....
 
When I was in the Marine Basic Class, I consider the Obstacles to be a part of body and mind building. I always remember my drill instructor of being keep telling us that your specialty is to kill.

My point here is, any school of martial arts condition your mind to be invulnerable, developed your morale and confidence if it comes to hand to hand combat. But in the real world it is too different. Take for instance a two boxer, the current champion seems invincible, but how come they were also beaten by a challenger. Which these two boxer came from different school with different trainer.
None is so called the best or effective kind of martial arts. The ruth to the matter is, mostly MA schools now are for commercial purposes. And also, there are martial arts for ring competition and the other is for street fight.

This is just my personal opinion. :)
 
If we wanted to get good CORE values in our recruits, we should have Full Metal Jacket video tapes passed out enmasse to all Drill Seargants as a training manual for them on what a perfect DS looks like....

I love the movie, but I'm afraid you and I have different opinions of what a Marine DI should be. The movie is just that, a movie.
 
Although I am not a big fan of MCMAT, I often see some of the training on the POI as a HazEx, it is better than nothing. The reason it is important to practice close combat in an age of precision weapons is that sometimes you still get that close. And in at least 1 case in OEF and several in OIF, American soldiers and Marines have had to resort to the use of a knife or unarmed combat to kill their enemy, it is all that common an occurrence? Hell no, but it happened and it is better to be trained for it and it not happening, than not to be trained and getting into the situation.
 
Wonder how the military version of Krav Maga would stack up in the real world?

I have studied Kenpo and Chinese martial arts and I can say for a fact that the version you would see by a skilled practioner on the street would hardly look like the moves and forms practiced in class.
 
line

linear in-fighting neuro-overide engagement

i just wanted to post that line traing does(did) incorperate knife training in line4 and 5, and even today when i get into physical encounters it is very natural for me to begin the easy but effective movements that i learned about 7 years ago now.

Coogan~
 
Coogan

You are correct the higher LINE numbers had knife fighting in them. Personal opinion as a former CCI in LINE and a current Green Belt (instructor) in MMA, was LINE was better and more practical technique than MMA. It does not take as long to train with and because of the simplicity of the movements was easier to retain. However it lacked the rheostat that MMA has, since there were only 2 submission techniques and about everything led to a lethal blow.
 
posting so far down has a few draw backs, many points are made and i would sound redundent to restate them.So all i can say is what i was told when I did boot camp " the purpose of this (H2H) training is to close with and kill your opponate"
 
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