Manipulating The Safety

Good discussion, I agree. I've done my share of FoF but not near as much as you, I suspect. As for the "safety fairy", what can I say? Your choice is to err on the side of caution for yourself, mine caution for what's in front of my muzzle. We each need to make this decision based on our lives and circumstances.

The one thing I will contend is that the simpler our manual of arms and the more uniform across weapon systems, the less chance we have for error either way.

Gabe is suggesting that the safety come off and remain off with the drawstroke. Simple and uniform. But KSFreeman points up a classic scenario for disaster...the transition. IMHO, 'nuff said. (Sapper, that alone may answer your own question.)

I'm suggesting (as does TR and Cooper's Modern Technique) that the safety and index finger be worked together and only when we're on target....also simple and uniform. You've adopted a middle ground with interim safety on/off steps. I'm a student, not a Teacher, but I'd suspect this might be leading to the "Safety Fairy" issues.

Again, there is no right/wrong here....so long as we individually think about what we do and why we do it that way.

I think the reason so many of us had gotten into the habit of disengaging the safety in the drawstroke, regardless of threat, is due to the nature of training. When we go to the range or a class, we're repeatedly presented with shoot targets. We're placed "behind the curve" and each draw culminates in immediate shooting. It's only once we go FoF or shoot houses that we are presented with no-shoot targets....and this is generally in the more advanced courses.
Rich
 
Just to reiterate... the reason why the safety is left on is because we are worried about the trigger finger and not a weapon retention issue (i.e. you get surprised by the bad guy and lose your weapon), right?

I guess the simple question would be... If you can't trust your finger to keep itself 100% off the trigger of an unsafed pistol, can you trust your thumb to disengage the safety when the SHTF right away?

With a revolver, I can see a big difference between a long 12lb DA pull and a 1911's 5lb pull. Glocks, however, are light enough and if you are spooked enough to trip an unsafed 1911's trigger, I'll bet the Glock would would go bang as well.
 
Pretty cool, i asked this almost a year ago to the day.

Very similar scenario with the P7M8... do you wait until horizontal to squeeze or do you do it upon obtaining the weapon?

btw, as mentioned in the link above, I go with "Safety off, finger off" right away with both the USP and P7. If I were to obtain a 1911, I'd probably stick with it now although I previously alluded otherwise.

cheers
 
krept-
I think most 1911's are more like 3.5 lbs. That's pretty light.

And no, I don't think the safety is a redundant device designed to protect you from your index finger alone...it's designed to protect against all manner of hobgoblin that might be sent its way.....especially if moving.

If we can agree that moving with safety disengaged is a bad thing, unless there's an active target there, then it follows that you have one of three choices:
1) Gabe's: Take the safety off on the draw and accept the risk above. I no longer agree with this at all, though it has traditionally been my method.
2) Traditional: Leave the safety on until your sights are coming on target....here the only question is whether you're willing to violate Rule II when you assess an individual's threat level. (I'm not)
3) Intermediate: Work the safety up and down and back again depending on a myriad of scenarios, the index finger moving independently.

PS: the other thread you reference seems to support my earlier point that most of us practice drawing on an already-been-identified threat. In this case, you, Gabe, Sweatn and I all end up taking the safety off at the same time....in the draw stroke. What that thread doesn't seem to envision is a multiple target scenario, such as getting to your kids at home or in school.
Rich
 
I leave the safety on until the sights are on target and I'm ready to fire. While saying that this is a training issue may sound simplistic, that is truly what it comes down to. The time it takes to snik off the safety, to me at least, is inconsequential; the safety comes off as the sights simultaneously come onto the target and I'm ready to fire. Frankly, if one is shooting so fast that the mili-second that it takes to take the safety off makes a difference, they are not taking time to fully identify the threat. Real life is not an IPSC match where everything in front of the muzzle is a "shoot" target.

I applaud those rare individuals who can fall face down and get a bloody nose while maintaining muzzle discipline. I truly mean this with no sarcasm intended. However, for the great unwashed masses (myself included) an unintentional discharge is quite possible if they trip over something and go down.

I personally feel that teaching novice shooters not to use the safety is irresponsible.

Just my .02.

Denny
 
I don't have a fraction of the training that most of you folks have, and my method of manual safety use is pretty much self evolved.

The only handguns I shoot seriously are 1911s. My firing grip is high thumb, so my safety is automaticaly depressed as my hands come together on the draw stroke. My thumb sits on the safety while I'm shooting.

Now as soon as I lower the gun to a low ready, or I need to move, I reapply the safety. Not in a situation where there are multiple targets or I'm still engaging targets as I move, but at anytime when there is a lull or I need to boogie to get someplace else the safety comes back on. I never really planned it that way, and it was never a conscious decision, just that as my immediate firing grip is relaxed I reactivate the safety.

As soon as I react to another target the safety is disengaged just by the action of me taking up my firing grip. I had not even realized that I did this until I observed myself doing it in a match once. Shoot a bunch of targets and then sprint to the next piece of cover. Noticing that I automatically reengaged the safety I kind of started paying attention and discovered that I did that everytime with out thinking about it.

Like I said, I don't have the training that many of you do, but I have a system that has evolved automatically and it seems to work pretty darn well. Plus I'm a big clumsy oaf who falls down a lot. Manual safeties AND trigger/muzzle discipline are my friends. :)
 
Great information....and you guys are reminding me why I switched to Glocks :D

I too was taught to safe/decock when holstering, moving, assesing...anytime I was not actively engaging.

Hence the switch to Glock..what can I say...I have tender thumbs!

Now that several 1911's have snuck back into my safe, I have pondered this very issue...and have pretty much come down on the safety off as I engage targets.

Just like those that choose not to use their safety...I worry that training to ALWAYS fire as the gun comes up can be just as hazardous.

The very real worry is that pressing the trigger will become part of that muscle memory...or removing the safety will not.

One makes for no loud noise when you desperately want it...one makes for a loud noise at the wrong time...with potentially fatal consequences.

Distilled down, it seems like clicking it (safety) off as you begin firing seems to offer the best assurance that the weapon will be ready when you need it...

Every time.....

That seems like the "best choice" YMMV

The greatest concern by everyone seems to be the time factor....I have heard the same concerns from some in regard to finger ON the trigger....

I think you have time (IMHO)



HKP7....a whole new can of worms, since we are talking now about altering your grip as you fire...but I would probably stay the course.
 
Saftey.

I'll second what D. Hansen stated.

I would not hunt with anyone who carried a firearm "off safe" - ever.

Add to that fact in a deadly force situation the stress factors. several weeks ago; i had to draw down on a guy coming at me with a large stick.

After all was said and done, and i started thinking about the whole scenerio, i don't even remember drawing my weapon, it was just there in my hand where it needed to be. I index my trigger finger on the slide saftey stop, saftey never was disengaged.

I guess i've always been trained to leave the saftey on until the weapon i'm using needs to be fired. I really don't think at this stage of the game, i would want to change this mindset.

12-34hom.
 
You guys make a pretty good case for keeping engaged until ready to fire but I'm sorta between what Tamara & Yankytrash do. I disengege on the draw at about a 45 deg angle with finger outside the guard. It's automaticlly disengaged as part of the draw. Missed it a few times n the early years but have since burned it into muscle memory and may not be able to change it now if I wanted to, which I don't. We're talking handguns here.

As for long arms in the field, Safety on with finger on the safety (thumb on AR safety, side of finger on ext safety with the 870, Finger forward on safety inside triggerguard on Mini's & M1A type rifles, finger/thumb on safety with tr finger out of guard on bolts.) Lost a deer once due to safety being on in the field.

I admit some trepidation to my Mini & M1A technique. There may be a better way there somewhere for those type rifles. I usually always carry longarms in the field shouldered at low ready.
 
I realize I am not in the realm of most of the guys responding to this thread, but here are my feelings..

Handgun/Defensive longarm- If the weapon is in my hand(s) the safety is off, and my finger is off the trigger and I am at low ready.

Hunting- if I am still hunting, the safety comes off when I get to my station. When I am going to/coming from the safety is on. When stalk hunting, the safey is on until I get a sight picture.

W
 
I tend towards the traditional both hunting or otherwise. But some circumstances might persuade me to have the safety off right away, and concentrating fully on shoot/don't shoot with finger parallel to the barrel. An example would be some of the home invasions described in another current thread.
 
This is how we address the issue at the Firearms Academy of Seattle.

Upon the draw, if the stimulas to fire has already been given, then safety comes off about the time the gun is horizontal and is coming to bear on target. This of course happens very fast.

If the stimulas to draw has been given, but not the stimulas to fire, then the student draws to low ready, "guard" but safety does not come off.

When doing building searches or other tactical situations, safety is on, or gun is de-cocked, until the need to shoot is determined.

I don't see any conflicts with the above training regime and working in the real world. I do know that in the real world, people get swept with muzzles, and if I get swept, I would rather have the safety on or the gun de-cocked, along with the trigger finger being ourside the trigger guard, than being swept with the safety off the the gun cocked, and finger outside the trigger guard.

The concept of clicking the safety on and safety off as Gabe describes just doesn't make sense to me. The time the safety comes off is when a target that needs shooting appears, at which time the sound of the safety is immaterial.
 
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