Mandatory Service---Thoughts, ideas, opinions?
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stephen426
New member
Jayb,
What if you don't enjoy the music? Should you pay? I know freedom has a price, but is that what are troops are dying for in Iraq? They got that monkey Saddam off their backs and now they want us off their backs. What benefit does their freedom have for our troops or the American people in general? Are they grateful and doing everything they can to rebuild and move on or are they killing our troops and each other? When you enlist in the army, you are government property and you have no choice but to follow orders. I would gladly risk my life for my country of we were to get into a major war and soldiers were needed. I'll be damned if I get sent to fight for some cause which we have no clear idea what the hell we are doing there.
What if you don't enjoy the music? Should you pay? I know freedom has a price, but is that what are troops are dying for in Iraq? They got that monkey Saddam off their backs and now they want us off their backs. What benefit does their freedom have for our troops or the American people in general? Are they grateful and doing everything they can to rebuild and move on or are they killing our troops and each other? When you enlist in the army, you are government property and you have no choice but to follow orders. I would gladly risk my life for my country of we were to get into a major war and soldiers were needed. I'll be damned if I get sent to fight for some cause which we have no clear idea what the hell we are doing there.
Preach to someone who wants to listen to it. I've been there, you have not, and will not.
Ahhhhh, I was hoping that someone would exist that could predict WHEN our freedoms might be in peril. I know, let's disband our military, and when the United States is threatened, the entire population (yeah right) will vote to see if our freedom loving parasites will take things seriously enough to enlist. I'm sure the US could persuade the agressor to wait until our newly enlisted forces were prepared. That way you wouldn't risk your life needlessly.
I spent two years watching people we were supposed to be helping denegrate me/us. I wasn't drafted, I enlisted. The fiddler needs to be able to play, before you can like, or dislike the music.
Ahhhhh, I was hoping that someone would exist that could predict WHEN our freedoms might be in peril. I know, let's disband our military, and when the United States is threatened, the entire population (yeah right) will vote to see if our freedom loving parasites will take things seriously enough to enlist. I'm sure the US could persuade the agressor to wait until our newly enlisted forces were prepared. That way you wouldn't risk your life needlessly.
I spent two years watching people we were supposed to be helping denegrate me/us. I wasn't drafted, I enlisted. The fiddler needs to be able to play, before you can like, or dislike the music.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
jayb,
should I close this thread and open another one where only veterans are allowed to share their opinions on the draft? Or can we keep this one open and refrain from belittling people and summarily dismissing their arguments because of their service history (or lack thereof?)
Let me know...I'm open for suggestions here.
should I close this thread and open another one where only veterans are allowed to share their opinions on the draft? Or can we keep this one open and refrain from belittling people and summarily dismissing their arguments because of their service history (or lack thereof?)
Let me know...I'm open for suggestions here.
stephen426
New member
Jayb,
So based on your theory, we should all submit to the the whims of our government to have freedom. There seems to be some contradiction there. This is a democracy, not a dictatorship.
We do not need a buch of untrained, unmotivated bodies that need to be housed and fed. Think about operational efficiency. Is it feasible to try and manage such a large group?
Another thing is how easy it is for any country to attack the US mainland? Maybe our Canadian neighbors might just say they are sick of their frozen wasteland and try to take us over.
Maybe our Mexican neighbors want to try and reenact the Alamo. The US Mainland is well isolated by miles of ocean on each side and our air space is well monitored.
Besides, we develop and maintain the most advanced weapons in the world. We are moving closer and closer to unmanned warfare. Our unmanned Predator drones have netted us quite a few high profile kills. Our sattelite surveillance is far superior to what it used to be. Do you really think we are going to get caught with our pants around our ankles?
Save your cocky self righteous attitude for someone who cares to hear it. Not everyone is called on to be a fist. The body cannot function without other other critical functions as well.
So based on your theory, we should all submit to the the whims of our government to have freedom. There seems to be some contradiction there. This is a democracy, not a dictatorship.
We do not need a buch of untrained, unmotivated bodies that need to be housed and fed. Think about operational efficiency. Is it feasible to try and manage such a large group?
Another thing is how easy it is for any country to attack the US mainland? Maybe our Canadian neighbors might just say they are sick of their frozen wasteland and try to take us over.
Maybe our Mexican neighbors want to try and reenact the Alamo. The US Mainland is well isolated by miles of ocean on each side and our air space is well monitored.Besides, we develop and maintain the most advanced weapons in the world. We are moving closer and closer to unmanned warfare. Our unmanned Predator drones have netted us quite a few high profile kills. Our sattelite surveillance is far superior to what it used to be. Do you really think we are going to get caught with our pants around our ankles?
Save your cocky self righteous attitude for someone who cares to hear it. Not everyone is called on to be a fist. The body cannot function without other other critical functions as well.
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Marko,
You suit yourself. I've said my say, and expect it to change nothing. It's my opinion, and I have a right to it. Everyone has that right. There just seems to be differing thoughts on how that right continues to exist.
"belittling people" ... my apologies.
"summarily dismissing their arguments because of their service history (or lack thereof?)" ....... yep, guilty !
Fear not, I'll trouble this thread no further.
You suit yourself. I've said my say, and expect it to change nothing. It's my opinion, and I have a right to it. Everyone has that right. There just seems to be differing thoughts on how that right continues to exist.
"belittling people" ... my apologies.
"summarily dismissing their arguments because of their service history (or lack thereof?)" ....... yep, guilty !
Fear not, I'll trouble this thread no further.
service
Those who have served in the military have a different appreciation of the reality of military service than those who have not served. While everyone has the right to their opinion, the veteran's personal experience weighs hevaily with me.
It shuld be understood that there are a few things under discussion here. The draft, universal conscription, and some other kind of service.
Universal conscription, as practiced in nations like Switzerland and Israel serves its purpose well enough, but be it noted that the Swiss do not force military training on women, and while Israel did at one time, they stopped as soon as they were able. Both nations are small, and use "universal" conscription to provide the trained manpower needed for a creditable defense.
The United States does not have their problems. Close to the opposite in fact.
The "draft" would not be "universal", it never has been, and I strongly doubt it ever could be, considering politics would be involved.
As far as some kind of non-military service, I ask, how much of ourselves does the state demand? The price of our freedom? What are we required to pay? We already pay plenty in taxes, and those who volunteer for service pay a great deal more. Often the ultimate price. They pay this willingly, for themselves, and for the rest of us.
The idea of some kind of mandatory civil service is a politician's pipe dream. And what they are putting in their pipe isn't legal for the rest of us.
We have managed the last 30 some years with an all volunteer military. Instating a draft, without a clear and present danger (such as an attack by a foreign military-not "terrorists") is an insult to all those who have volunteered to serve. It cheapens the sacrifice of service.
I served, in my time, and my children are serving today. Proudly. Of our own free will. Like lots of others. We went, knowing we might be cannon fodder, and hoping not to be. Willing to take the risk, for ourselves, and our families, and our country.
We are not fighting the Hitler's Nazis, , the sons of Nippon, nor the Red Hordes, with their armies, navies, and aircraft, bent on world domination. We are fighting a relatively small number of religious fanatics. Well funded, and determined to be sure, but without a standing military. No tanks, no ships, they attacked us with hijacked aircraft.
Our leaders decided that while we look for these people, we take out the regiemes harboring and supporting them. This we have done with our standing forces, quite handily.
The occupation and pacification of the countries is more manpower intensive than destroying their armies. We are being streched thin, and our leaders are looking for ways to field more troops. So they float the idea of a draft.
To make it more appealing, more fair and evenhanded, they add in the idea of non-military service, so it can be applied to everyone. What could be more fair? Everyone would do service, either military or civil. Good for the country. Good for our children, good for our politicians. Good for everyone except the cannon fodder. At least it seems that way to me.
I suggest that, absent combat with the armed forces of another world power, if you can't get enough volunteers to fill the needs of the military, you are doing something wrong.
Those who have served in the military have a different appreciation of the reality of military service than those who have not served. While everyone has the right to their opinion, the veteran's personal experience weighs hevaily with me.
It shuld be understood that there are a few things under discussion here. The draft, universal conscription, and some other kind of service.
Universal conscription, as practiced in nations like Switzerland and Israel serves its purpose well enough, but be it noted that the Swiss do not force military training on women, and while Israel did at one time, they stopped as soon as they were able. Both nations are small, and use "universal" conscription to provide the trained manpower needed for a creditable defense.
The United States does not have their problems. Close to the opposite in fact.
The "draft" would not be "universal", it never has been, and I strongly doubt it ever could be, considering politics would be involved.
As far as some kind of non-military service, I ask, how much of ourselves does the state demand? The price of our freedom? What are we required to pay? We already pay plenty in taxes, and those who volunteer for service pay a great deal more. Often the ultimate price. They pay this willingly, for themselves, and for the rest of us.
The idea of some kind of mandatory civil service is a politician's pipe dream. And what they are putting in their pipe isn't legal for the rest of us.
We have managed the last 30 some years with an all volunteer military. Instating a draft, without a clear and present danger (such as an attack by a foreign military-not "terrorists") is an insult to all those who have volunteered to serve. It cheapens the sacrifice of service.
I served, in my time, and my children are serving today. Proudly. Of our own free will. Like lots of others. We went, knowing we might be cannon fodder, and hoping not to be. Willing to take the risk, for ourselves, and our families, and our country.
We are not fighting the Hitler's Nazis, , the sons of Nippon, nor the Red Hordes, with their armies, navies, and aircraft, bent on world domination. We are fighting a relatively small number of religious fanatics. Well funded, and determined to be sure, but without a standing military. No tanks, no ships, they attacked us with hijacked aircraft.
Our leaders decided that while we look for these people, we take out the regiemes harboring and supporting them. This we have done with our standing forces, quite handily.
The occupation and pacification of the countries is more manpower intensive than destroying their armies. We are being streched thin, and our leaders are looking for ways to field more troops. So they float the idea of a draft.
To make it more appealing, more fair and evenhanded, they add in the idea of non-military service, so it can be applied to everyone. What could be more fair? Everyone would do service, either military or civil. Good for the country. Good for our children, good for our politicians. Good for everyone except the cannon fodder. At least it seems that way to me.
I suggest that, absent combat with the armed forces of another world power, if you can't get enough volunteers to fill the needs of the military, you are doing something wrong.
Nothing More
Every American already provides a public service to their country just by virtue of doing their job and civic duties, and I don't believe we need any expanded gov't. program to decide what's a worthwhile public service and what isn't.
Every American already knows that freedom isn't free, and they should also know that freedom doen't need to cost nearly as much as this proposal would cost if it was ever implemented.
As President Ike said "Beware of the military/industrial complex".
Maybe he should have also added to "beware of military/industrial complex type individuals".
Our country deserves the soldiers it needs, nothing more and certainly nothing less.
It's getting nothing more!
Our freedom is simply not at the root of this proposal no matter how anyone might try to wrap an American flag around the issue!
Every American already provides a public service to their country just by virtue of doing their job and civic duties, and I don't believe we need any expanded gov't. program to decide what's a worthwhile public service and what isn't.
Every American already knows that freedom isn't free, and they should also know that freedom doen't need to cost nearly as much as this proposal would cost if it was ever implemented.
As President Ike said "Beware of the military/industrial complex".
Maybe he should have also added to "beware of military/industrial complex type individuals".
Our country deserves the soldiers it needs, nothing more and certainly nothing less.
It's getting nothing more!
Our freedom is simply not at the root of this proposal no matter how anyone might try to wrap an American flag around the issue!
wingman,
Here's what the big deal is: We don't want him press-ganged to go kill and die in an unjust and unnecessary war. That is a decision for *him* to make, not some politician or faceless government bureaucrat.
And should he choose to go I don't want some draftee covering his back. I've gotten kind of attached to him and I want him back in one piece.
I'm not particularly worried about a draft at the current moment, but that could change depending on what Dubya decides to do about Iran.
Doesn't apply in my case. I'm a gulf war veteran. My wife works for Homeland Security and a volunteer First Responder. Our son is in the Sea Cadets and is much more motivated than I ever was. I fully expect him to join the Marines and when he makes that decision we will both fully support him.
Here's what the big deal is: We don't want him press-ganged to go kill and die in an unjust and unnecessary war. That is a decision for *him* to make, not some politician or faceless government bureaucrat.
And should he choose to go I don't want some draftee covering his back. I've gotten kind of attached to him and I want him back in one piece.
I'm not particularly worried about a draft at the current moment, but that could change depending on what Dubya decides to do about Iran.
Superhornet
New member
This bill sponsered by old Charlie Rangel ?? One of the liberal democratic black caucus.....he has been trying to get this into vogue for a couple of years...Has nothing to do with protecting the country or freedom....Has everything to do with Politics.....His complaint is that only the Poor blacks join the military and the RICH whitemans children do not serve.........
Good Idea
I think it is a good idea for young men and women leaving high school to have some military training.
I agree that conscription can create a poor caliber of soldier. However, a 2 month training for juniors or seniors during the summer might not be a bad thing.
It would teach discipline, basic firearm safety and training and would open a good deal of young people's eyes to the idea of country and and national defense.
That said, we have a number of poor citizens who might use the opportunity to sabotage the military and damage the authority of the military regarding chain of command and the following of orders. You might have thousands of nitwits who purposely commit acts of insubordiantion, treason tc just to cripple the armed forces. So a watchfull eye would have to be in place as well as a separation of these conscripts from real forces.
I think it is a good idea for young men and women leaving high school to have some military training.
I agree that conscription can create a poor caliber of soldier. However, a 2 month training for juniors or seniors during the summer might not be a bad thing.
It would teach discipline, basic firearm safety and training and would open a good deal of young people's eyes to the idea of country and and national defense.
That said, we have a number of poor citizens who might use the opportunity to sabotage the military and damage the authority of the military regarding chain of command and the following of orders. You might have thousands of nitwits who purposely commit acts of insubordiantion, treason tc just to cripple the armed forces. So a watchfull eye would have to be in place as well as a separation of these conscripts from real forces.
DonR101395
New member
Then his complaint would be that only poor black kids are getting drafted.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
A draft would have to encompass the rich and white and no phoney baloney National Guard service for the chosen.
Thus, there will never be a draft again unless it is truly global war threatening the actual survival of the USA.
Rangel is playing the poor and race card, I wouldn't think that he would deny it. He makes the point that poor folk join the service for patriotism and to advance themselves. Nothing wrong with that.
The issue is the competency of the leadership that sent them to this war. I think we now have enough conservatives and military leaders doubting the leadership that the point is well taken that why are the poor and the patriotric having to die for the mistakes of leadership?
For me the issue is not fighting our enemies, it's fighting them competently and for the right reasons. I don't see that here. Not in the competency of the troops but at the top.
Thus, there will never be a draft again unless it is truly global war threatening the actual survival of the USA.
Rangel is playing the poor and race card, I wouldn't think that he would deny it. He makes the point that poor folk join the service for patriotism and to advance themselves. Nothing wrong with that.
The issue is the competency of the leadership that sent them to this war. I think we now have enough conservatives and military leaders doubting the leadership that the point is well taken that why are the poor and the patriotric having to die for the mistakes of leadership?
For me the issue is not fighting our enemies, it's fighting them competently and for the right reasons. I don't see that here. Not in the competency of the troops but at the top.