Man who reports MWAG charged

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From my understanding, Starbucks is not denying service to those who open carry a firearm into their establishments.

They simply implore visitors not to do so, but it seems like it's a policy they will not be actively enforcing. You'll still be able to get your morning mocha frapaccino with or without your Python strapped to your waist.

That said, can you really blame Starbucks? The Gun community pushed this unfortunately, they had explicitely requested NOT to be dragged into either side of the politics (Which ironically, they are still playing politics by being neutral) they just want to sell coffee.

But I'm derailing the topic at hand right now, and the topic of starbucks on open carry in their stores (or lack thereof) is for a different thread.

In regards to the man who "cried wolf" so to speak, I believe he deserves a very firm education in regards to the laws that pertain to open carrying. I do not believe the man should be convicted on what he is being charged.

We should not be quick to pass judgement upon others, for we do not wish to have hasty judgement passed upon us. Sure he made a bad call, but we must be mindful, to change our image we must tread very carefully.

It's one thing to be championing an establishment for your cause and rallying in front/in of their stores (when they expressed their desire to remain neutral) and walk around with long arms slung over your shoulders, it's a different thing entirely if you're simplying walking in with your side arm and conducting normal buisness with them.
 
horselips said:
Legal or not, civilian open carry in an urban/commercial environment is really, really stupid. OC is fine for the field, and only for the field. The jittery customer was right. I too presume anyone open carrying to be dangerous, if only because stupid people are inherently dangerous.
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You don't happen to be a politician in Chicago, do you? This is pretty much their position, too; doesn't matter if it's legal, you can't do it.
 
Legal or not, civilian open carry in an urban/commercial environment is really, really stupid. OC is fine for the field, and only for the field. The jittery customer was right. I too presume anyone open carrying to be dangerous, if only because stupid people are inherently dangerous.
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So are you saying that police officers should only carry concealed as well? They carry openly, do they not? And, best I can tell, the world has not stopped spinning on its axis even though many hundreds of thousands of police across the world openly carry firearms. Why is it such a grandiose leap for law-abiding citizens to openly carry as well? Frankly, I would trust a citizen openly carrying more than I would certain police officers.
 
We already have a thread discussing the Starbucks situation. This isn't the place.

It also isn't the place for an open carry vs. concealed carry discussion.
 
The article didn't even say the gun bearer was open carrying, only that Mr. Twistedknickers saw that he (?) had a gun. That said, it doesn't matter. In Connecticut, you need a Connecticut permit to carry. Once you have the permission slip, you can carry open or concealed. The Connecticut laws about where carry is NOT allowed do not distinguish between open and concealed carry, and do not prohibit carry in banks.

Mr. Twistedknickers created a major furrball over a completely legal act. I remain of the opinion that it's only right that he be held accountable. How was this any different from yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater when there is no fire?
 
yelling fire in a crowded theater

Aquila,

My understanding is that yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire is the classic example used to explain that the freedom of speech is not absolute.
 
My understanding is that yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire is the classic example used to explain that the freedom of speech is not absolute.
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It is, but the point remains the same. You could argue there was a fire (the gun) in this case, but that's like saying that yelling fire in that theater is okay if someone lights a cigarette...
 
Qtiphky said


Even though this event happened in CT, I just re-read the Michigan prohibited places and it states, "a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution (blah blah blah) and then at the end "This section does not apply to...A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon."

This was in the open carry section. So, does that mean that you can not open carry in a bank, but you can concealed carry in a bank? When I got my permit 10 years ago and renewed it 4 years ago, I could swear that the instructor said no carry of any kind in a bank as it is considered a federal building, which is a prohibited area for concealed carry in Michigan.

Any clarifications would be helpful.
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You can carry into a bank in Michigan only with a valid CPL.

The law

(MCL 750.234d)
(1) Except as otherwise provided in
subsection (2), a person shall not possess a
firearm on the premises of any of the following:
a) A bank.
b) A church
c) A court
d) A theatre
e) A sports arena
f) A day care center
g) A hospital.
h) An establishment licensed under the
Michigan liquor control act.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the
following:
a. A person who owns, or is employed
by or contracted by, an entity
described in subsection (1) if the
possession of that firearm is to
provide security services for that
entity.
b. A peace officer.
c. A person licensed by this state or
another
state to carry a concealed weapon.
d. A person who possesses a firearm on
the premises of an entity described in
subsection (1) if that possession is
with the permission of the owner or an
agent of the owner of that entity.

An AG opinion, Senator Prusi, and the MSP
stated that a person with a CPL can carry a
firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in
MCL 750.234d and the Concealed Carry pistol
free zones in MCL 28.425o


Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A
person licensed by this state… to carry a
concealed weapon….By its express terms,
section 234d prohibits certain persons from
carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but
explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a]
person licensed by this state or another state to
carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person
licensed to carry a concealed pistol,
including a private investigator, is exempt
from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed
by section 234d of the Penal Code and may
therefore possess firearms while on the
types of premises listed in that statute.

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State
Police legislative liaison and has received
some answers to share with you. According to
the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in
a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL
holder. I was advised that your information was
correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d
permit this activity. I was informed that there
are no other additional relevant laws regarding
this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator
38th District

“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free
zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL
pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders
carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL
holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's
pistol free zones.”
Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section

MSP Legal update 86
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf
 
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Thanks "Closing the Gap", but the wording at the end of the brief seems to contradict itself.
“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free
zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL
pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders
carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL
holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's
pistol free zones.”
Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section

So, no concealed carry in pistol free zones, but because I have a CPL I can open carry?

Confusing as all heck.
 
What that is referring to is the concealed pistol free zones. I meant to add this section of the law but somehow overlooked it.

Pistol Free Areas

Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology on the following premises:

Please refer to MCL 28.425o for the complete statutory text

Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian

Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

Sports arena or stadium

A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials allow concealed weapons

An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

A hospital

A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

A Casino

"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.

A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CPL holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed.

You must open carry in these areas listed above in Michigan, but only with a valid CPL due to its exemption. I know it doesn't make sense but thats the law.

In a bank you can carry open or concealed but only with a CPL.

Edit: I open carry everywhere I go(including my banks). I currently live in Oakland county for reference. I only acquired my CPL in order to be legal in all areas. Mainly for transportation purposes though. In Michigan without a CPL you have to encase your pistol separate from the ammunition in the rear most compartment of the vehicle. You cannot arm yourself in the vehicle even parked or risk getting a CCW charge. Without a CPL you have to take the pistol case out of the car and arm yourself outside. For legal purposes vehicle is anything with wheels or with a motor. Yes that means open carry on a motorcycle without a CPL will get you a CCW charge.
 
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Interesting. So, having a CPL allows me to "open carry" in pistol free zones-but not conceal carry there? Very confusing.
 
Yeah. That's the size of it. I open carry everywhere as it eliminates the confusion and is more comfortable for me. I also carry a tri-fold with the laws and legal updates as to educate others who might be confused as well.
 
If you are arrested for NOT breaking the law you are living under tyranny. Anyone who supports tyranny should have their citizenship stripped and be deported to the country of their choice.

My wife grew up in a police state (Communist China under Mao) and it was common for people to be locked up for not breaking the law because Mao said so or because someone reported you to the authorities. My father-in-law was locked up over a false report. He got out of jail 3 months later and he was a decorated military OFFICER and Korean War vet! But hey, someone fingered him as a "capitalist" (replace with gun owner for future Amerika).

Is this how you all want to live? Is this what you want your children and grandchildren to live under? Hitler did not show up out of the blue and just start gassing Jews. It was a slow progression over 20+ years to get to that point. Just like Mao did not start his cultural revolution until about 10 years after taking office. It is starting here.

If You the People trust We the Government you deserve all the tyranny you have coming your way. And trust me, it's coming.

Just check my IP address.

The silver lining of what is coming will be those of us on the inside that will keep our oaths and side with The People and the Constitution. But I fear there might be too few of us and that is when it gets ugly.
 
Legal or not, civilian open carry in an urban/commercial environment is really, really stupid. OC is fine for the field, and only for the field. The jittery customer was right. I too presume anyone open carrying to be dangerous, if only because stupid people are inherently dangerous.
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Open Carrying a holstered firearm is not "stupid." Getting ones knickers in a twist over a holstered firearm is stupid.
The jittery customer was a moron. He attempted to hand a teller a note that said "gun," with little in the way of explanation. When he was unable to convey his point through sign language and grunting (apparently), he left, leaving the teller to think he might be the problem.
"Because stupid people are inherently dangerous?" Perhaps they ought to not be the ones driving the discussion? We probably shouldn't let them drive and operate heavy machinery either, what's your point? A lawfully carried firearm should be a non-issue. Hand-wringers in the pro-gun community aren't really helping matters by being concerned with "feelings" and "impressions." Who are we trying to please? Mostly people who would simply take away the entire 2nd Amendment if they had their way. Do we really care if they are happy? After a certain point, people have a right to do stuff, even if it bothers people. Heck, Gay Pride Parades and demonstrations annoy me (and not for the reason you probably think), and yet... no one cares. Perhaps lawful open carry should work the same way?
 
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