Man shoots another man who is attacking a woman

if the actor had had a basis for reasonably believing that the other
person would have been lawfully justified in defending themself.
I already quoted that (or the like) right out of the VA statute:

Looking at what was reported...
Unarmed woman, with man actively stabbing her, and pursuing her in to store.

As before, the onlooker who had the means to stop it -- but deliberately chose not to -- lives with the visons at 2AM.

You call . . . .
 
The instruction I have received is based on the premise that use of deadly force is legally permissible when defending myself or a third person from the imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.

The question of intervening to protect a stranger has come up on this forum a number of times. Beyond the legal implications (which as pointed out can vary by locality) often the question of a moral imperative is brought up. I’ve seen firsthand in force in force scenario based training where someone’s desire to help ends up causing more casualties than may have occurred otherwise. This is often coupled by many thinking that the presentation of a firearm will yield compliance (for instance, in this story I command the knife wielder at gun point and that will cause him to stop). If you spend some time watching body cam or dash cam footage of law enforcement officers it becomes readily apparent that this is untrue, and it’s untrue of people with generally more authority in our legal system than a private citizen (that is if a person won’t listen to a police officer, I question if they will listen to some random person). People seem to assume rational behavior in people committing a criminal act (i.e. stopping an attack when a gun is point at you), but criminal acts are performed by people who are often not in a rational state of mind (temporarily or regularly).

I can’t tell another person what he or she should do, similar to MarkCO. I can share a small anecdote. An instructor I have taken courses with a number of times shared a story of how he witnessed an altercation between a man and a woman outside of a store while he was with his daughter. This instructor had been a police officer for many years. Being with his daughter and his primary concern being her safety, he called in what he saw and stayed to be a good witness. As the event unfolded (no one was killed) his daughter asked him point blank, “Daddy you have a gun, why don’t you stop him?” That’s an uncomfortable question for any parent when you may end up losing some of the hero image children often have of their parents. But this is reality. That’s why I made the comment earlier. These are questions we really owe it to ourselves to ponder. What are or aren’t you willing to do when carrying a firearm? What is our personal line, not just what is legally permissible but what can we live with? Now obviously each situation is different, but I think it’s better to consider these situations ahead of time rather than wrestle with the moral dilemma during the event and in our inaction potentially lead to more harm to someone else or ourselves.

In those force on force scenarios I mentioned where others were being hurt, a number of people chose to simply run. They weren’t necessarily wrong to do so, and when the people in the class that had chosen to intervene and in the process killed other actors in the scenario watched this on video, they were generally dumbfounded. It had never occurred to them to consider that possibility. At the same time in some of those scenarios, one where a receptionist at a doctor’s office was beaten by a jealous ex, many could see the exit but felt obligated to do something rather than watch a woman be beaten. There were consequences for getting involved, however, and personal risk.

For myself I can imagine a situation where I would personally get involved if legally justified and morally compelled. I’d add getting involved doesn’t always have to involve force. Being a good witness and rendering aid if safe to do so are all ways a person can choose to get involved (and they also carry risk).


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I already quoted that (or the like) right out of the VA statute:

Looking at what was reported...
Unarmed woman, with man actively stabbing her, and pursuing her in to store.
The ebb and flow of an ongoing physical altercation would not provide a basis for s reasonable belief about whether one participant or the other might be justified in the use of deadly force for self defense.

One would have to witness the whole thing from the beginning, and have some idea of who the participants actually were.

As before, the onlooker who had the means to stop it -- but deliberately chose not to -- lives with the visons at 2AM.
Not in prison.
 
For myself I can imagine a situation where I would personally get involved if legally justified and morally compelled. I’d add getting involved doesn’t always have to involve force. Being a good witness and rendering aid if safe to do so are all ways a person can choose to get involved (and they also carry risk).
I agree.
 
Not in prison.

The person who intervened in this story is also not in prison. I understand you have multiple points here, with which I generally agree. There can be and generally are legal implications of being involved in a use of force in defense of a third party and it’s practically impossible to know all the details of an altercation as just a casual observer. At the same time, not all intervention results in prison time (or life in prison for that matter).

As has been said, at some level each of us has to choose to what level we care or don’t care about some stranger in our society. A number of threads ago I shared a story of a man who was assaulted coming out of a convenience store at night. He was punched in the back of the head and fell unconscious in a sidewalk. The attackers then robbed him and ran away. People then proceeded to literally step over the man as he lay in the road. Eventually he was run over by a taxi and died from those wounds.

In terms of self preservation the people that stepped over him owed nothing to the man, and a harsh but fair comment might be the man should have known better going out later at night in not a great neighborhood. None of that changes the fact that a man died seemingly because no one was willing to make the slightest effort to help him. I don’t mean chase down or attack his attackers, I mean stop the taxi from running him over. I’m a realist. I expect nothing in terms of help. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be grateful for the help were I that man or that I wouldn’t be grateful if someone helped a family member or friend in a similar situation. There’s a balance in all of this that is difficult and makes choosing to carry a firearm an incredibly impactful decision, which doesn’t always seem recognized (present company excepted).


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The person who intervened in this story is also not in prison.
Good.

There can and are legal implications of being involved in a use of force in defense of a third party and it’s practically impossible to know all the details of an altercation as just a casual observer.
The best instructors in the field tell us why intervention without knowing the underlying facts is not prudent.

Over the past dozen years we have read of numerous cases that emphasize why.

,...not all intervention results in prison time (or life in prison for that matter).
Of course! If the actor had a basis for reasonably believing that the situation justified intervention, and i in some states, that that belief was correct, there would be no reason for prosecution--unless someone to were to provide unfavorable testimony afterward.

Actual cases that some to mind that went bad include intervening when a shoplifter is resisting a store security person; intervening when the apparent victim had started the confrontation; intervening in case of mutual combat; intervening against a plain-clothes officer defending himself from a violent criminal actor; butting in when a care-giver is managing a grand mal epileptic incident; interfering with an arrest; intervening with a parent restraining a child; intervening in a case of domestic violence, only to be identified by the apparent victim as the criminal aggressor; and more.

Those who have been around long enough have seen all of these.

They did not trun out well.
 
I’m aware of your examples and I agree intervention is a very loaded decision. My goal was to even out what I saw as a one sided argument from people on both “sides” of this argument (I use quotations because I don’t really see people as arguing a side, more trying to point out the realities of the situation).


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One other thing: from the report, it certainly seems that the man doing the stabbing is not a good guy (and if he had been, he no longer remained one).

That alone would not justify the use of deadly force to defend the other person.

What we cannot know from the report is what the defender knew at the time. That is of primary importance in any defense of justification.
 
The applicable part here is "Virginia's rule is that you step into the shoes of the person he/she defends. Therefore, if the person being defended would have been justified in using self defense, the third party defending that person is as well.23

However, a third party may not defend another unless he reasonably believes that the other person was without fault in provoking the attack,

Simply seeing one person pounding or stabbing another would not likely provide a basis for believing which participant has been the initial aggressor.

Minnesota law, which applies in the case of the incident described in the OP, is essentially similar.

By the way, in all states, "reasonable belief" extends beyond the subjective.
 
However, a third party may not defend another unless he reasonably believes that the other person was without fault in provoking the attack,

Which is counter to your assertion that
If she had been the initial aggressor, she could not lawfully employ deadly force to defend herself, and therefore, a third party would not be justified in using deadly force to defend her.
 
I think it’s worth pointing out that in the OP’s story the shooter witnessed the woman being stabbed and then chased by the assailant. While I think it’s reasonable and prudent to point out that just because you witness someone in an advantageous position in a fight it doesn’t mean they were the initiating party, in many states you cannot chase your assailant once you gain the upper hand. At that point you have may have positioned yourself as the aggressor in many localities. I have had conversations with prosecutors that have pointed out that even certain levels of preparation in a home break if those preparations were done before choosing to seek out the burglar could be argued as pre-meditation, which is why in the quote above I specifically stated “imminent threat”. To me the act of witnessing an unarmed person being assaulted and then chased by an armed person would add to the argument of a person in the event he or she chose to intervene. This is important to keep in mind for both a person intervening and for someone defending himself or herself.


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I think it’s worth pointing out that in the OP’s story the shooter witnessed the woman being stabbed and then chased by the assailant.
...and that's why he fired.

.
in many states you cannot chase your assailant once you gain the upper hand.
All states.

At that point you have may have positioned yourself as the aggressor in many localities
.But not the initial aggressor, unless the other person had signaled an intent to withdraw, and a second encounter had begun.
 
Again my goal here is to keep the original story in perspective to the comments being made, hence why I’m making these comments. I have no way of knowing the third party chose to shoot solely because he knew he was legally permitted to do so. That’s an assumption about his legal knowledge. He seemed to intervene because he saw someone who was in distress. I think it’s worth pointing out the legal implications for everyone reading.

As to being the initial aggressor, I don’t see how what I said in any way conflicts with that. My point is that just because you are the victim of the initial aggressor doesn’t give you the legal right to chase your assailant. This is relevant to the OP’s story and your point about judging who is or isn’t legally in the right to use force by being a casual observer.


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Let me put it this way. Say the woman in question was the initial aggressor. The man fends her off, she flees, and he then chooses to pursue her and attack her despite him no longer being in imminent danger. At this point both parties have committed acts that will likely see them arrested and investigated. Were I to intervene on behalf of the man and when questioned by police argue I did so because he wasn’t the initial aggressor, I don’t know that my actions would be legally justified.

My point is while who is the initial aggressor is an important component, the actions of the original victim following the crime are also important. This is worth keeping in mind both for someone defending himself or herself and a person considering intervening. This highlights something you brought up earlier and that I have already agreed with, that choosing to intervene is a weighted decision.


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Great discussion, all. Thanks to Old Marksman and Tunnel Rat for their reasoned arguments.

My own position vis a vis inserting myself into an "apparent" attack on another is this....I will intervene only in the case of a family member or very close friend. The consequences of my actions, if I misread the unfolding scenario, are far too great to gamble with the future of my family.

YMMv and I truly understand that, but will add...you had better be 100% right in your actions, and even then you may be psychologically and financially crippled for life. Rod
 
I would also like to point out that because the local authorities chose not to pursue charges means that the shooter (in this case) is not necessarily free.

The Ahmad Aubaury (spelling?) case was not initially charged by local authorities. But when the the people eventually convicted of murder provided the videos they recorded to social media prosecutors followed up and now they are spending the rest of their lives in prison
 
If the stabbing was a random event and the woman happens to be within a car-length from me (at a gas station), I will defend the woman if I can do it safely.

If some sort of chase is going on, moving away from me, I'll call 911. I am not a cop. I am not paid to be a cop. Nor am I a Judge. I do not have soverign immunity like a cop or judge has, and I am not going to run down some murderer like a cop.

Let's not forget, if I can carry a gun, so can the woman being attacked. Each of us must take measures to protect our own lives and the lives of our families.
 
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