Man Charged with Killing Grizzley (In defense of his family)

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Once again, we are not talking about unlimited HUNTING even on private property, but the right to protect and defend your property from a HUGE and aggressive bear species.

I am not sure by the limited information available so far that the owner had no other option but to shoot the bear, I am stating that the approach of the Feds especially here in Idaho is very heavy handed and over bearing. People should be able to enjoy the right to protect not only their life and their families lives, but their property as well.

For those that wish to have a different perspective on this case, take a look at the Governor of Idaho who is urging the Feds not to prosecute this case.

http://www.idahoreporter.com/2011/otter-asks-feds-to-reconsider-prosecuting-grizzly-bear-shooter/

In this news article, it states that the man thought that three of his children were in a danger zone of where the grizzly was. If that is true, then it certainly sounds like a justifiable killing. I don't believe anyone here in Idaho would prosecute this man since we live with these beasts and know what they can do. The Feds should let this case go. Hopefully the jury of his peers will not convict but it is anyone's guess how it will end.
 
If someone gets drunk and accidentally runs over a child, then calls 911 and reports the accident, would you be willing to give him a "get-out-of-jail-free card," just because he did the right thing by reporting it?

Certainly not! Bad analogy, people are worth more than animals. This man had 5 kids it said. Would you have him have to get a bit or attacked child before you allowed him to shoot the bear? Dad has to go to work at some time, then what? The bear has more rights?

We have not heard any reports that the Bears had attacked any children yet. The Dad shot the bear, and concern for the Five children's safety was given as justification. I'll buy that. Especially coupled with the fact that he promptly reported the incident.

So what happened to for the children? The police can use it but the citizens can't? :D
 
The "property rights" argument is the reason why whitetail deer and egrets were once hunted nearly to extinction, and the reason why Carolina parakeets and passenger pigeons are extinct.

Maybe white tailed deer, but certainly not the birds. The birds were hunted for the eastern markets. Feathers for the ladies hats and the pigeon used to be a favorite meal in upscale restaurants. (But there is also a big difference between predatory deer and a bear.)

Until the federal and state governments, which fosters these un-wanted predators back on us, comes up with a way to compensate people for the damages done, things like this will continue to happen.

They have a program to pay for damages from the wolves they put back in to their "native environment". But trying to get compensation is like pulling teeth from a chicken.

If you want to see these animals in the wild, or want your grandchildren to see them in the wild, go to the national parks. Your not going to be able to see them on my land.

Knowing the way the non-farming public reacts towards things like this, I can understand why the Shoot, Shovel and Shut-up program is so prevalent in so many parts of the country.
 
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On the one hand, I understand the desire to preserve species, and I admit to some tree-hugger tendencies.

On the other hand, it seems to me that the people who get the most fervent about protecting some of these critters have the least involvement and interaction with them; often, they also have the least knowledge of them, but in some cases they are very book-smart about the animals.

But it's very easy for a city dweller to want to protect and increase the numbers of predators; those city dwellers aren't the ones losing livestock to them. They don't have to worry about their children running into one (although they do have to worry about their kids running into bipedal predators - yet one rarely hears a hue and cry to protect that subspecies...)

In this particular case, given that the guy has already lost livestock to grizzlies, and the bears keep returning to his property, I don't really care whether his kids were at imminent risk. The bears' behavior pattern meant his kids were at long-term risk, and as a juror I would vote to nullify, and would get after my fellow jurors to nullify.
 
I am not unsympathetic to the man, even if his family was not in immediate danger. My whole point is that his legal liability probably hinges on how imminent the danger was to his family. That is a different issue than whether the law should be changed or whether re-population should be stopped.
 
Who is more important, the grizzly which is not at all a threatened species or people.

The grizzly in the lower 48 most definitely is a threatened species.
http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=A001

Population detail

The FWS is currently monitoring the following populations of the Grizzly bear
•Population location: U.S.A., conterminous (lower 48) States, except where listed as an experimental population or delisted

Listing status: Threatened

States/US Territories in which this population is known to or is believed to occur: Idaho , Montana , Washington , Wyoming
 
Dear DNS,

That is just mumbo jumbo legaleze for a species that has actually strengthened in numbers if you look at the ENTIRE population in the North America. Just cuz some folk are smart enough to rid themselves of this predator does not mean in any sense it is a threatened species. It is in fact a thriving population increasing in the Lower 48 by 3% each year. The estimated population before man was 50-100,000 in all of North America from Mexico to Canada and Alaska. It actually was a plains animal in many western states.

Today, the total North American population which is INCREASING is about 55-60,000 in a more confined area. In Canada, they have spread eastward into areas that they did not populate historically.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/translating-uncle-sam/stories/are-grizzly-bears-becoming-unbearable

Please tell me how a population that is within historic ranges of population estimates AND INCREASING is a threatened species? If you wish to believe the propaganda of the Feds and the Econutjobs, so be it, but here in Idaho, WY, Montana it is becoming a huge problem with man-bear interactions that are not reasonably looked upon by the Feds.

If it is true that the bear was present and his kids out and about on his property, if I was on the jury, I vote not guilty. He has a right to protect his property and his children.

If you folks that don't live with these beast want some in your backyards, just ask the Feds to relocate them to your area. The east coast has a whole lot of wilderness area that they could adapt to just fine. Throw in some Mackenzie Valley wolves that get up to 180 pounds and travel in packs of up to 20 and you will have as much fun as folks up here in Idaho are having.

Funny, I don't see a whole lot of folks on TFL from Idaho speaking for the bears and against people like a lot of folks from outside of here are doing.
 
Today, 06:24 AM #47
KyJim
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Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 4,707
I am not unsympathetic to the man, even if his family was not in immediate danger. My whole point is that his legal liability probably hinges on how imminent the danger was to his family. That is a different issue than whether the law should be changed or whether re-population should be stopped.
__________________
"Instead of a Seeing Eye dog, what about a gun? It's cheaper than a dog, plus if you walk around shooting all the time people are going to get out of the way. Cars, too!" - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

I agree KYJim that is is all in the details, but if his children were out and about on his large property, then just having the bear in that area posed a serious risk to his children especially since it was a momma griz with cubs. Ask the man in Yellowstone who was killed a couple of months ago if being a hundred yards or so away from a momma griz was dangerous.

So, waiting on specific details of the case, if the kids were out on the property and the grizz were in the same location, what would you do? Let momma and baby griz chew on a couple of your kids, or take care of the problem right then and there. Yes, he may have been quite a distance from the bears, but how close were his kids. Remember, the bear can run a hundred yards in about 4-5 seconds, faster than many horses. Once again, if you were in that situation understanding your kids could be in grave danger, what would you do?

That is a question that a jury of his peers from Idaho will answer and my guess is that they acquit him. Perhaps the Feds can charge him with some sort of civil rights violation and move the trial to LA or NY or Boston to get a conviction. I doubt a jury of his true peers will convict.
 
I'm not trying to insult anyone, but this goes back to the people are locust. I'd like my grandchildren to actually be able to see these thing in the wild and not in a history book. We destroy anything we fear until they are gone or until someone with a brain makes us stop, and it's a damn shame. If we want anything to be around for future generations we need to adjust our thinking and find ways to coexist instead of shooting first. Invent a bear proof enclosure and sell it for a million bucks, I don't know.

I get that bears are big and scary. But people need to get it through their thick skulls the bears were here first, WE are the trespassers. Conservation begins with everyone, not "the other guy".

I appreciate the frank statement of your view, and not insulted by it, and offer my own view hoping that you will not be offended either.

I don't think an animal that sees me or my family as prey has any business being allowed to live near people. That includes cats big enough to stalk and drag teenagers and bears so big that retreating into your home isn't even necessarily effective. I would say that it includes unleashed wandering dogs as well.

I live in a city, and can't imagine that we would tolerate for a moment a bear near, say, a playground. Yet we would have people who live out west tolerate that?

I have small children. I don't like seeing deer, groundhogs or racoons in my yard which is very near some woods in a Cleveland suburb. Unfortunately, suburban police don't like to hear gun fire, so I don't generally shoot the animals I see. At my parents' place in the coutry, it wasn't even a close call.

Dangerous animals should be mounted on walls, not left to wonder what your children taste like.
 
We don't do religion folks - no exceptions. Thus those posts are deleted.

Also, if you see a post that offends you, rather than start a flame war - report it.

The mods will deal with it or decide if it is OK.

GEM
 
Hmmm... see religion is rearing its convoluted head. We don't do religion at TFL for a very good reason.

This is my lunch break. When I come home from work, I really hope I see no more of it (religion-speak, that is).
 
Property rights and hunting had very little to do with the decline in whitetail deer populations.

Clear cut logging?

That had everything to do with it.

Same with wild turkey.

Oddly enough, though, while clear cut logging almost wiped out deer and turkey, it was also instrumental in their explosive population growth starting soon after.

Old-growth forest is a terrible place for deer turkey. It has very little of the low browse foods that they need.
 
KyJim said:
I am not unsympathetic to the man, even if his family was not in immediate danger. My whole point is that his legal liability probably hinges on how imminent the danger was to his family. That is a different issue than whether the law should be changed or whether re-population should be stopped.
(Emphasis added.)
Exactly -- that's been my point, as well. Under the current law, there's a requirement for people to be in immediate danger from a grizzly in order to justify shooting it. That's the issue in this case.

If no one is in immediate danger, then, by definition, there are other alternatives: getting the kids inside and calling the FWS would have been an obvious one.

It may well be that the law should be changed, but in the meantime, it is what it is, and responsible citizens follow it... while lobbying to change it, if they so choose.

Edward429451 said:
Vanya said:
If someone gets drunk and accidentally runs over a child, then calls 911 and reports the accident, would you be willing to give him a "get-out-of-jail-free card," just because he did the right thing by reporting it?
Certainly not! Bad analogy, people are worth more than animals. This man had 5 kids it said. Would you have him have to get a bit or attacked child before you allowed him to shoot the bear? Dad has to go to work at some time, then what? The bear has more rights?
You missed my point, which wasn't about the relative worth of animals and humans, but about intent, and about whether it makes a difference if someone reports his own illegal actions to authorities.

If a child is killed accidentally (runs out into the street, say) and alcohol isn't involved, the driver may well be found not to be at fault in any way. He wasn't doing anything illegal to begin with, didn't intend to hurt anyone, and had no way to avoid hitting the child. He won't be charged with any crime.

But we view the same set of circumstances differently if the driver is drunk, because drunk driving is illegal, and a responsible person knows that. If you run a kid down and kill her while you're drunk, you are going to be charged with the death, not just with DWI -- and calling 911 won't change that.

The analogy here is that Mr. Hill was living in bear country, and should have known what the law did and didn't allow him to do about bears on his property. It's good that he reported the shooting, but that alone doesn't let him off the hook for not knowing the law in the first place -- if in fact his children were not in immediate danger.

As I keep saying, we have no information about that yet.
 
"I don't think an animal that sees me or my family as prey has any business being allowed to live near people."


Conversely, then, people should NOT be allowed to move to areas where there are such creatures.

If they're there, they should be forcibly removed to a concentration cam.... er... a city, well beyond the reach of the scary, scary, critters.
 
Dear DNS,

That is just mumbo jumbo legaleze for a species that has actually strengthened in numbers if you look at the ENTIRE population in the North America.

That is funny Alaska444, because you used a specific term relative to how the species is classified and said it wasn't "threatened" and I showed you specifically where the species is threatened in the lower 48, where the incident occurred. The only place it North America it isn't listed as threatened is in Alaska.

Please tell me how a population that is within historic ranges of population estimates AND INCREASING is a threatened species?

I am sorry. I did not realize that you didn't know the definition of the word you were using.

Threatened - The classification provided to an animal or plant likely to become endangered within the foreseeable future throughout all or a significant portion of its range.
http://www.fws.gov/midwest/endangered/glossary/index.html

A species may remain on the Threatened listing when its numbers are increasing just like a patient who is improving may remain in intensive care. Pardon the put, getting better in health or population growth doesn't automatically mean you are out of the woods yet.

Funny, I don't see a whole lot of folks on TFL from Idaho speaking for the bears and against people like a lot of folks from outside of here are doing.

Funny, I don't see a lot of people here speaking for the bears, but speaking for waiting to see what information comes out in trial because we haven't already determined the shooter was right or wrong.

As far as that goes, we have our issues with alligators. There have been approximately 2/3 the number of people killed by gators as by brown/grizzly bears since the 1970s despite a much more narrow habitat range in which to operate.
 
Mike Irwin said:
Conversely, then, people should NOT be allowed to move to areas where there are such creatures.

If they're there, they should be forcibly removed to a concentration cam.... er... a city, well beyond the reach of the scary, scary, critters.

Your first word only works if your planted axiom is that the bear has an equal right to live and occupy land.

There is no question but that expanding human populations give rise to many of these problems. I just don't see expecting a fellow who sees a bear near his house to tolerate that as a reasonable solution. If I can't tolerate racoons and goundhogs, I don't see the proportion in having someone else tolerating a carnivorous apex predator.

Vanya said:
If no one is in immediate danger, then, by definition, there are other alternatives: getting the kids inside and calling the FWS would have been an obvious one.

Can we acknowledge that this is not a solution to having a bear in your yard? As Mike indicates, either you will need to put those children beyond the range of the bear, or as I have suggested, killing the bear means it can't kill your children.

A happy co-existence doesn't seem likely enough.


I got a chuckle about concern about deer populations. Ohio is over-run with them. They sleep in my ivy beds an make a general nuisance of themselves.

I've read that Ohio has more deer now than before it was settled. Until people here stop thinking of deer in terms of Disney films, this will only get worse.
 
Yes, yes, DNS Polar bears are increasing in population and are "threatened," grizzly bears are increasing in population and are threatened because some folks want to reintroduce them to areas where people rightfully rid their population centers of these dangerous bears to people and livestock decades ago. For your information, even here in the lower 48, they are anything but threatened and it is only East coast politics that keeps them from being delisted, especially in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem. They are now outstripping the food resources of Yellowstone and have far exceeded the target numbers set previously for delisting. Man-bear interactions are growing more dangerous all the time.

http://www.powelltribune.com/news/item/6973-grizzly-delisting-impasse

So, if you are going to ridicule my statements, please get up to date on the real issues of grizzlies here from people that have at the minimum to take them into account when doing any outdoor activity. In fact, how much money have you spent preparing for grizzly bear interactions? I have spent several thousands of dollars when you add in the guns I have purchased, ammunition and practice as well as bear pepper spray in the last few years. That is a direct cost to me simply for bear defense. Specifically, I have bought a Marlin .444 and a Ruger SRH in .44 magnum and I will buy in a few months a Winchester .44 magnum all for black and grizzly bear camp and woods guns. For your information, the ammo for these guns is not cheap and you must practice if they are going to do you any good at all.

In addition, the grizzly population is WITHIN the historical estimates from prior to any intervention of man which is estimated at 50-100,000 bears. We now have 55-60,000 bears in North America in a more confined space which actually increases the population density of these critters where they now exist. If you are so interested in preserving them, put them in your own back yard where they used to exist all the way down to Mexico and see how your ranch friends enjoy having them back.

So, you are in great error continuing the political double speak of calling grizzlies a threatened species when they may have the same exact number of grizzly bears in North America as they did hundreds of years ago as well as the fact that they are INCREASING in population throughout their range and expanding into the Olympics, the Bitterroots, Cabinet-Yak, and Selkirk ranges.

So, by your reasoning, we should up them back in Arrowhead and Big Bear Lake, LA mountains, Sacramento, Yosemite, Shasta, Oregon, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, AZ, Texas, and don't forget the plains states. What kind of economic impact do you think that would have on all of the farmers and ranchers? Instead of spreading the pain of this beast between all of these areas that could support a grizzly population, they are shoved onto populations that do not want them to satisfy your sense of conservation that I highly doubt anyone in your states would accept. There is absolutely no reason not to consider the high Sierras as a grizzly relocation area. It is just as wild as Norther Idaho and Montana. Yet the people of CA would never accept them there. This is hypocrisy at it's worst.

Once again, if you are so concerned about them, put them back in these other places so all of you can enjoy them as much as we do here in Idaho. If you are not willing to put up with the sacrifices imposed on the people of WA state, Idaho, MT and WY, then I would ask why you feel you have as much of a say so in this whole issue as you folks seem to think you have the right to do. Come up here to Idaho and spend some time in the Bonners Ferry area and see what the people living with these bears have to put up with. There is no reason whatsoever that the bears are not now delisted since it is quite evident that the bear recovery has already accomplished it's goals. There is a healthy, reproducing bear population that is no longer in need of protection.

Limited hunting will not negatively impact their population even in the lower 48. To do any large game hunting here in Idaho, you must have a specific tag for that animal and they are controlled very tightly from deer, to bear to elk and especially moose. Hunting has the benefit to people of keeping these animals scared to interact in human populations. They stick to their areas and we stick to ours. It is an interaction that will prevent many of these adverse man-bear interactions. That is a very reasonable approach that the east coast weirdos will not allow Idaho to self determine. In addition, simply delisting does not mean that they would have to be hunted, but it would return grizzlies to the status of an animal, not that of some super protected species given even more preference than people. It is time to bring sensibility back to the discussion of grizzly bear management which we simply do not have today.
 
Let's some real data to this discussion with a website that gives more specific details including some interesting pictures of the property involved. If you had 4 children outside within a very short distance of three grizzly bears, how would you respond? In addition, would you leave a wounded grizzly that could kill and unsuspecting hiker, home owner it encountered after wounding it while the kids were still outside? That is not only the humane thing to do for the bear, but it protects your friends and neighbors.

http://www.idahoforwildlife.com/Website articles/Jeremy Hill grizzly incident.pdf
 
Here is another part of the story, it was NOT a female grizzly killed, but a two year old male. That will have ZERO impact on future reproductive rates of the population since it was not a female involved.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/aug/23/man-pleads-not-guilty-grizzly-bear-shooting/

Unfortunately, the aggressive prosecution of this man will lead to a backlash and lack of reporting. That will hinder the Feds in protecting this population. People in Idaho fiercely protect individual rights and view this case as a huge intrusion by the Feds into the right to protect man's home and children. The outcome will be no more people notifying the game wardens if any future bears are killed by people simply protecting their property and their family. There must be an element of trust for people to be willing to comply with the Feds regulations that are greatly contested by the people of this area. This is not a case of poaching or other unlawful shooting, the man truly believed his family was in danger and he acted upon that. I am sure he and his wife were terrified not having children respond to their calls. This is not the actions of a criminal intent. The Feds are way out of line prosecuting him and I am sure it will cause a political backlash to to remove the threatened species designation.

Either way, the Feds will lose. If they do convict this man, he will serve as a martyr for the cause that will eventually accomplish delisting. The restrictions placed on people living with these bears is causing undo sacrifice. We are only beginning to hear the rumble of angry property owners here in the Pacific Northwest.
 
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