You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Malfunction Clearing Question
- Thread starter rdtompki
- Start date
One small argument in favor of the universal overhand technique is there is no reason to assume that the gun you will use in a fight will always be yours.
Doesn't apply to me although makes sense; All our handguns as it happens are full size M&P, virtually identical. None, for example, have an external safety. I've seen threads where an individual purchased three different 9mm, small autoloaders for CCW. I assume the intent is to have different "jewelry" for different occasions? Sounds good unless you actually have to use your tool. I doubt many carpenters reach into their tool chest each day and say "which titanium hammer will look best with my shirt today?".
Steve in PA
New member
I'm a LEO firearms instructor and teach all three methods; over-hand, slingshot and slide release. In fact, I had this conversation with one of my officers last night.
Learn all three, use what works for you. But know how to do all three!! If all you learn/use is the over-hand, what are you going to do if one of your hands is injured? Ask a new shooter to rack the slide and most will use the slingshot. Why? Because it's a natural movement.
I also do not believe in the loss of "fine motor skills". Anything with your hands; racking the slide (any method), reloading, opening a door is a fine motor skill. If a shooter is expected to be able to hit a teeny, tiny magazine release, insert a magazine into a magazine well, press the trigger, then why in heaven's name can they not be expected to hit the slide release???
Learn all three, use what works for you. But know how to do all three!! If all you learn/use is the over-hand, what are you going to do if one of your hands is injured? Ask a new shooter to rack the slide and most will use the slingshot. Why? Because it's a natural movement.
I also do not believe in the loss of "fine motor skills". Anything with your hands; racking the slide (any method), reloading, opening a door is a fine motor skill. If a shooter is expected to be able to hit a teeny, tiny magazine release, insert a magazine into a magazine well, press the trigger, then why in heaven's name can they not be expected to hit the slide release???
Steve, thanks for the great post. It's a challenge for a newbie to sort out the different ways of doing things. As my wife and I continue to take training we'll continue to find instructors who have their own way of doing things. The LEO instructors for my one day tactical pistol class emphasized over-hand, but I have no doubt in a full-week of law enforcement training they would have discussed and taught the other techniques. And the slingshot is using our wonderful opposing thumb which over man's development has proven pretty darn reliable.I'm a LEO firearms instructor and teach all three methods; over-hand, slingshot and slide release. In fact, I had this conversation with one of my officers last night.
Learn all three, use what works for you. But know how to do all three!! If all you learn/use is the over-hand, what are you going to do if one of your hands is injured? Ask a new shooter to rack the slide and most will use the slingshot. Why? Because it's a natural movement.
I also do not believe in the loss of "fine motor skills". Anything with your hands; racking the slide (any method), reloading, opening a door is a fine motor skill. If a shooter is expected to be able to hit a teeny, tiny magazine release, insert a magazine into a magazine well, press the trigger, then why in heaven's name can they not be expected to hit the slide release???
I didn't care for the the slide release technique taught by our most recent instructor (left thumb after inserting mag during and emergency reload) for a few reasons, one being that 10 round full-size M&P mags, especially my wife's 9mm, take a real slam to ensure that they lock in place. This sort of manipulation doesn't put the left hand thumb in much of a position to actuate the slide release; better to over-hand. If the M&P was more amenable to using the slide release with the strong hand thumb I would see that technique, but it doesn't work reliably for me.
As a civilian the likelihood I'll ever have to use any of these techniques in a live situation is so close to zero it's ridiculous, but we do train and practice to prepare for those situations that approach zero probability.
Pick one and train with it.
The odds of that .1 seconds making the difference are smaller than screwing up the reload/malfunction making the difference.
I go with the overhand method because it is easy and I can do it with semi-numb hands (practicing in Colorado winters forced some changes). I figure if I can do it with numb fingers, I can probably do it under some stress.
The odds of that .1 seconds making the difference are smaller than screwing up the reload/malfunction making the difference.
I go with the overhand method because it is easy and I can do it with semi-numb hands (practicing in Colorado winters forced some changes). I figure if I can do it with numb fingers, I can probably do it under some stress.
zombietactics
New member
I go with the overhand method because it is easy and I can do it with semi-numb hands (practicing in Colorado winters forced some changes). I figure if I can do it with numb fingers, I can probably do it under some stress.
Smart observation.
I'd also add that some are quick to compare simple abduction and adduction (used to press a trigger or activate a mag release) to the far more complex combination of radial-abduction and anti-position/retro-position required to thumb a slide release.
Before forming conclusions based upon overly simplistic notions of fine vs. gross motor skills, it's wise to try these techniques with cold/freezing hands, muddy, wet or bloody hands, wearing gloves, etc.
I carry, and use in IDPA competition, the same Glock 19, in IDPA, you can only reload with 10 rounds in the magazine.
Walking out of the door, going to drive to wherever, there is 16 rounds in the pistol.
If lock back happens, as in all rounds expended, in a match, in a gun fight (?) then the method is the same, press magazine release, take new, fully charged magazine from belt, insert into pistol, use slide release (Glock says slide lock lever? Hullo) which is an extended factory one, to put the pistol back in to battery. I have no idea how many times I have done this, but a lot.
Sometimes I have fired more rounds than planned? Brain glitch, so I need to reload sooner than planned, press mag release, new mag in, right thumb presses the slide release, back to movement, or shooting.
The thought of expending 16 rounds, and requiring a mag change? Bit of a stretch yes?
Walking out of the door, going to drive to wherever, there is 16 rounds in the pistol.
If lock back happens, as in all rounds expended, in a match, in a gun fight (?) then the method is the same, press magazine release, take new, fully charged magazine from belt, insert into pistol, use slide release (Glock says slide lock lever? Hullo) which is an extended factory one, to put the pistol back in to battery. I have no idea how many times I have done this, but a lot.
Sometimes I have fired more rounds than planned? Brain glitch, so I need to reload sooner than planned, press mag release, new mag in, right thumb presses the slide release, back to movement, or shooting.
The thought of expending 16 rounds, and requiring a mag change? Bit of a stretch yes?
sigpro2340
New member
Pick one and train with it?
Good ideal in theory..................until you switch guns. I've done most of my semi shooting over the years with a 1911, full hand grasp seemed to work fine.
But the last few years as I got more involved in to USPSA or Steel shooting, I'm gone to a Beretta 92FS because I can shoot faster then I can load.
After a few clips the pistol gets warm, the Beretta has an exposed barrel, when using the full hand grasp, you burn the crap out of your hand.
I know, you're going to tell me to pick one gun and stick with it. Well I don't want to, I want my 1911 for Bowling pins cause if you have to load shooting pins you already lost, I like the 45 to take the pins off the table. But if I'm shooting some sort of run and gun, I like my 18 round mags in the Beretta.
The two guns require a different grip to rack the slide or at least they do for me.
Good ideal in theory..................until you switch guns. I've done most of my semi shooting over the years with a 1911, full hand grasp seemed to work fine.
But the last few years as I got more involved in to USPSA or Steel shooting, I'm gone to a Beretta 92FS because I can shoot faster then I can load.
After a few clips the pistol gets warm, the Beretta has an exposed barrel, when using the full hand grasp, you burn the crap out of your hand.
I know, you're going to tell me to pick one gun and stick with it. Well I don't want to, I want my 1911 for Bowling pins cause if you have to load shooting pins you already lost, I like the 45 to take the pins off the table. But if I'm shooting some sort of run and gun, I like my 18 round mags in the Beretta.
The two guns require a different grip to rack the slide or at least they do for me.
Folks can be vary passionate about this subject when it comes up. I have no problem using the over-hand or the slide stop method depending on the design of the pistol. Some pistols do not have a slide stop that lends itself well to releasing the slide...like a Glock for instance. Others, like the Beretta 92/M9, 1911 are the opposite. In fact, attempting to over-hand the M9 brings it's own problem...the risk of inadvertently placing the gun on safe. I also don't buy into the "Gross Motor Skill" idea because you are still expected to operate safeties and press magazine releases so how is that any more difficult?
The bottom line...go out and test all methods on the clock and as some have mentioned, in different environments to see what works best for you with your chosen equipment.
The bottom line...go out and test all methods on the clock and as some have mentioned, in different environments to see what works best for you with your chosen equipment.
KraigWY and Striker, I pretty much agree.
I learned mostly on 1911s, and have a M9. I've burned my hand on the M9 barrel and I've inadvertently activated the safety! I use a little bit more of a rolling motion on the overhand-rack now, which works for me. It's a little less surface area, but I don't engage the safety and it grips far enough back to not burn.
Your hand may vary.
I learned mostly on 1911s, and have a M9. I've burned my hand on the M9 barrel and I've inadvertently activated the safety! I use a little bit more of a rolling motion on the overhand-rack now, which works for me. It's a little less surface area, but I don't engage the safety and it grips far enough back to not burn.
Your hand may vary.
Derbel McDillet
Moderator
In fact, attempting to over-hand the M9 brings it's own problem...the risk of inadvertently placing the gun on safe.
I carried a Beretta 96 on patrol. My "tap/rack" method was "tap, rack, safety" in which I physically made sure the manual safety was disengaged as part of my immediate action.
I carried a Beretta 96 on patrol. My "tap/rack" method was "tap, rack, safety" in which I physically made sure the manual safety was disengaged as part of my immediate action.
I know some who take this approach as well. Here are a couple other ways that may work as well:
- Grasp slide over-hand by holding up on the safety with fore finger on one side and thumb on the other.
- Grasp slide from the rear (sling-shot) again holding the safety up with thumb and fore finger.
Lots of mention of a safety? Use a Glock 19, no safety, use a factory extended slide release. They sell them, yes?
A holster hides the trigger, or should do, so forget the need for a safety catch.
I know different individuals say they want to use different pistols. But for carry of a self defense, carried on person pistol, using different ones, with different controls, is, IMHO, asinine!
Not to often you get written invitations to a gun fight, yes? So you could be in a strange place, poor light, both hands with bags, or even boxes.
You have a split second to respond to violence, aimed at you!
Which gun do I have today? Were is it? Does it have a safety catch?
On, and On! Laugh at me if you want, but the same gun in the same place is my way. Always.
A holster hides the trigger, or should do, so forget the need for a safety catch.
I know different individuals say they want to use different pistols. But for carry of a self defense, carried on person pistol, using different ones, with different controls, is, IMHO, asinine!
Not to often you get written invitations to a gun fight, yes? So you could be in a strange place, poor light, both hands with bags, or even boxes.
You have a split second to respond to violence, aimed at you!
Which gun do I have today? Were is it? Does it have a safety catch?
On, and On! Laugh at me if you want, but the same gun in the same place is my way. Always.