Making bullets 'less than lethal'

The first time one of these is used and the inaccurate ball strikes a suspect in the throat, eye, sternum, and causes death or serious bodily injury, or worse, does same to a person not the target, will likely be the end of the company. I wonder if they have their "exit strategy" mapped out yet.
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I seriously doubt that. Given the number of deaths attributed to tasers, some of them ruled homicides, and the total lack of successful suits against police and manufacturers and the lack of prosecutions of police who have killed with tasers; supposedly less than deadly weapons are with us to stay.

This particular device seems a bit cumbersome to use. As others have mentioned there are other devices that serve the same function.
 
Maybe for animal control? It might get a dog to back away without having to kill it, but that seems like a stretch.
It would probably break a car window pretty good.
Seems like a weird idea.
 
I watched the video, and I have to say I am still in doubt. As a police tool, possibly, in some situations. Certainly not a general use thing, and there is the risk of administrators declaring it has to be used when it really isn't the best idea.

For a private citizen, I think it is a serious risk to even own one. Because if you own one, you might be tempted to use it. And if you use it, you are painting one HUGE legal bullseye on your backside, inviting all kinds of prosecutors to shoot at it, and giving them the ammunition!

Maybe for animal control? It might get a dog to back away without having to kill it, but that seems like a stretch.
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Again, maybe, provided that you accept the fact that you may kill the dog anyway. Old family story, my Grandpa used to tell...he was a farmer, back in the 40s who was one of the few who loaded his own 12ga shells. Neighbor asked for some, loaded with split peas. Seems he had an otherwise good dog who had taken to bothering the chickens. He wanted something that would really convince the dog it was a bad idea. Papa suggested rock salt, but the neighbor was determined, he wanted split peas. So, Papa loaded him a few.
(pauses, lights pipe..)
"Killed that dog dead as a stone!"
:D
 
I guess I'll be the bad guy.

It actually seems interesting to me. I've seen several police shootings that involved an insane/drunk/high and or distraught guy with a knife being shot because they were slowly approaching a cop. This device could be applied to a gun in this sort of slow developing semi-standoff situation. If it didn't work then the officer is instantly able to use lethal force.

Of course I'm anti criminal and pro police but there a problems in police tactics. Violent crime has dropped dramatically but SWAT teams usage has gone through the roof as has no knock house clearing. Also police seem to be trained to continue shooting once they start.

I also see police videos in which the cops curse citizens. Cops should be more professional and remember who works for who.

That said, I would think cops would like another less leathal alternative.
 
I would only think it was interesting if the weapon could be bolstered with the device or similar device. But I don't really see how this would be any different than just a rubber bullet, unless rubber bullets can't be made to cycle a weapon. I have been on the receiving end of a no knock warrant at the wrong address, and believe me, there was no reason to believe I wasbbeing robbed except I saw a cop in my backyard through the window so I left my gun on the nightstand. I would rather see cops use better sense with no knocks, or rather not do them at all, but maybe this device COULD possibly save the life on an innocent person when they think their house is being robbed
 
One could argue that with the hit rate for cops so low, how are they gonna hit the suspect with this gizmo in a REAL fight and with just one shot!

Deaf
 
There are a couple of points about this "ball" gadget that are being mentioned, but not addressed fully.

"it won't fit in the holster". Obvious, sure. But you can make a holster to fit anything. Whether it would work, or whether the cops would wear & use them, are different questions.

"cops don't have the time to snap this thing on the gun". Again, obvious, and completely true for many situations. There are times when a cop would have the time to attach one though. And, as a counter point, note that cops don't carry rubber bullets, beanbags, etc as their duty ammo.

They only load with the "less likely lethal" rounds when they expect, in advance they will be more useful than regular ammo.

The only instant choice the cop has is what he draws from what he has with him. Gun, Taser, baton (if he has them) are the usual choices, and that is an apples vs oranges, vs watermelon discussion.

It's a pretty safe bet the ball's designer plays pool. The bullet is the cue stick, sending the cueball across the table (down range). The pool balls are the same hard stuff as the cueball. People, are not.

ENERGY, velocity, surface area. These matter, and I'm sure the designer has done tons of various calculations. So far, I see no mention of the actual force of impact. Got any ideas? Use a 9mm for a cue stick. What force is the ball gonna have at intended range? guesses? would 300ft/lbs seem realistic?

Remember that since the cueball is trapping the bullet, all the bullet's energy is used. Some of it gets the cueball moving (at what speed?) the rest goes downrange with the cueball. (maybe we should call it a "Clueball" ?)

Clearly the intent is the surface area of the clueball spreads the impact energy, and (at the levels involved) prevents penetration of a person. Therefore, it is less likely to be lethal. Good theory, actually works, less likely, not nonlethal.

Swing a sword at someone's head, hit them edge on, cuts the head open/off. Result: DRT. Same sword, same swing, same head; hit with the flat of the sword. Caves the head in, (or breaks neck) Result: DRT.

Stab someone COM. Puncture heart/lungs, bleeding, serious risk of death.
Hit them with a baseball bat, No direct penetration from the impacting object, but break rib, rib punctures heart/lung, bleeding, serious risk of death.

OK, not perfect analogies, but the point is the same energy CAN be lethal, from either a point source (sword edge, ice pick, bullet) or a larger impact area (Sword flat, baseball bat, etc.)

I think "clueball" is a good name, because a)if you pop someone with one of these, its a real good clue you aren't happy with what they are doing, and b) because I think the designer doesn't have one! :rolleyes:
 
Given the number of deaths attributed to tasers, some of them ruled homicides, and the total lack of successful suits against police and manufacturers and the lack of prosecutions of police who have killed with tasers; supposedly less than deadly weapons are with us to stay.
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List/link? I know of one, linked to petroleum based propellant OC spray that was ignited by the Taser, and our entire Dept switched to a water based propellant in response. I have heard of a few deaths involving heart attack or such, is that what you refer to? Please also remember, Taser and other LTL are NOT non-lethal, like I explained earlier.
I have used or directly witnessed being used almost every form of LTL weapons out there, some work, some don't, and not every single one works 100%. And, as you note, not one of them is 100% non-lethal. Heck, hit someone with a pillow and someone will find a way to get smothered with it.
 
List/link?
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http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...-man-TASERed-by-Conn-police-ruled-a-homicide/

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/25326725/big-island-taser-death-ruled-homicide

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/death-man-stunned-while-custody-ruled-homicide/ngXbt/

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/east-point/2014/06/24/east-point-taser-death/11296789/

http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico...an-shot-with-3-tasers-ruled-homicide/21473042

Google, give it a try. I used "taser death ruled homicide police", without the quotes. A simpler "taser deaths" would give you huge returns.
Has anyone mentioned that being jolted with electricity might cause a heart attack. So saying someone died from a heart attack while being taserd isn't really a defense of tasers.
You might want to search seniors, handicapped, and children tasered.
 
Why, when i can have you back up your statement? :) Thank you.
As I said, they are less than lethal, as in they weren't designed to be lethal weapons. Cars also weren't designed to be lethal weapons, but cops get killed with cars every year. Misuse is the problem, there. Same with taser, which does make a civilian model, BTW. Gives a 30 second ride instead of 5 seconds, shoot, drop, scoot, IIRC.
I heard the same argument against OC in LE, because someone with asthma could have a fatal attack. Possible, but we don't have time to ask for medical histories when Bad Things are happening.
I'll keep the stuff I can use, like Taser, because I'm not going to run a prison with whiffle bats and whipped cream. We don't use it often, but when it comes into play, it's very helpful.
 
As I said, they are less than lethal, as in they weren't designed to be lethal weapons.
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I could be wrong, but isn't the term "less lethal" without the "than".
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The term is what ever the person using it thinks it is, and that's where confusion sets in, as the person hearing it may think of something else, entirely.

I try to call them "less likely to be lethal", which I believe is most accurate, but its also a bit of a cumbersome mouthful, and seldom used in favor of a less accurate, shorter term.

"Less lethal", and in particular, "less than lethal" leads many people to falsely assume that the rounds will not kill. Then, when a (predictable) death occurs these same people assume it was something else the officer did (or did not do) that caused the death.

Thinking of these kinds of ammo as "less than lethal" is a false security blanket. And I don't think one can assign that term to anything based on design intent alone. Baseball bats, claw hammers, and rocks are dandy lethal weapons although that isn't their designed function.

Tasers, rubber bullets, teargas, and even the basic club (baton) all have a place in police work. Just don't get into the habit of thinking that because they usually don't kill, that means that they will not kill.
 
James K
Some folks urge total disarmament of the police, arguing that gentle persuasion and the majesty of the law are sufficient to stop criminals and prevent crime.
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Yes they do but they seem to forget how well it's working in England and in Germany in the 30's
 
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