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Magnum Question
- Thread starter Nathan
- Start date
Yes, stuff could be made to do that but the cost would be expensive to keep small tolerances reliable. And accuracy would improve very little, if at all.….and this is the key point. I wonder if that was reduced to about 0.002”, if guns and brass could be made!
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Jim Watson
New member
and this is the key point. I wonder if that was reduced to about 0.002”, if guns and brass could be made!
Maybe obsolete now but it was once done to buy enough brass of the same lot to wear out a barrel and chamber to just accept it. We don't need no stinkin gauges.
List your priorities, but do not expect the market or manufacturers to fall in line.
I do not know if its fact, but in Rifle or Handloader mag,a Brit wrote an explanation for H+H case design. To answer a question about loading Cordite spaghetti through a case neck,our Brit explained the loads were assembled with basic.cylindrical brass. After the Cordite sticks were added The cartridge was run through a forming die and necked down. This explains the long ,sloping shoulders.
The long sloping shoulders geometrically made for a mushy,indefinite anvil for primer ignition.
What geometry would perform the function of a rim,yet stack and feed in the available P-14 actions? Remember the P-14 Enfields were a resource . The 303 Rim boltface was amazingly the right size for the H+H case, and the length of the action,coincidentaly ,was 375 H+H length. HMMM. Almost like someone had a pile of P-14 actions to rework.
The 45 deg chamfer on the backside of the belt would work.
If Mister Cape Buffalo were approaching to lick your face, would you want ,002 clearance before a stoppage or .005? Or .008?
The belt was a creative workaround. Its silly it became a core design feature.
Given in the 1920's and 1930's, optics were in a more primitive state,was 2 or 3 MOA adequate or was < 1 MOA accuracy a thing for 50 yd Big Five shots?
Given Big Magnum cartridges were often used on guided hunts pursuing dangerous game,
What was the Ammuntion Manufacturer's priority on Brass reloadability?
Nil ??
We can sip spirits and,based on OUR PERSONAL creative list of ideals, we MIGHT actually have a useful hack to pursue. It might even work! More or less.
But don't hold your breath that the industry will adapt your idea. Few of us can be the Center of the Universe.
A pipedream I dismissed,for myself, was similar regarding a very precisely fitted belt seating in a recess in the chamber. My twist on it would be a 45 deg centering seat on the headspace surface. Picture an intake valve seating in a cylinder head. The case head would be forced to center in the chamber to less than .001. Fun idea to think about.
Would it prove out? Who knows!! Maybe some self centering air bearing forces work better if the carridge just floats!!! Or maybe Sierra and the Military could learn that for $30 a round you could CNC turn belted brass that 85 % of the time would show a
0.014 MOA advantage. Yawn. But Unbelted brass might be better. Belts are silly. Like an appendix.
We don't see Belted 6.5 Manbun.
I do not know if its fact, but in Rifle or Handloader mag,a Brit wrote an explanation for H+H case design. To answer a question about loading Cordite spaghetti through a case neck,our Brit explained the loads were assembled with basic.cylindrical brass. After the Cordite sticks were added The cartridge was run through a forming die and necked down. This explains the long ,sloping shoulders.
The long sloping shoulders geometrically made for a mushy,indefinite anvil for primer ignition.
What geometry would perform the function of a rim,yet stack and feed in the available P-14 actions? Remember the P-14 Enfields were a resource . The 303 Rim boltface was amazingly the right size for the H+H case, and the length of the action,coincidentaly ,was 375 H+H length. HMMM. Almost like someone had a pile of P-14 actions to rework.
The 45 deg chamfer on the backside of the belt would work.
If Mister Cape Buffalo were approaching to lick your face, would you want ,002 clearance before a stoppage or .005? Or .008?
The belt was a creative workaround. Its silly it became a core design feature.
Given in the 1920's and 1930's, optics were in a more primitive state,was 2 or 3 MOA adequate or was < 1 MOA accuracy a thing for 50 yd Big Five shots?
Given Big Magnum cartridges were often used on guided hunts pursuing dangerous game,
What was the Ammuntion Manufacturer's priority on Brass reloadability?
Nil ??
We can sip spirits and,based on OUR PERSONAL creative list of ideals, we MIGHT actually have a useful hack to pursue. It might even work! More or less.
But don't hold your breath that the industry will adapt your idea. Few of us can be the Center of the Universe.
A pipedream I dismissed,for myself, was similar regarding a very precisely fitted belt seating in a recess in the chamber. My twist on it would be a 45 deg centering seat on the headspace surface. Picture an intake valve seating in a cylinder head. The case head would be forced to center in the chamber to less than .001. Fun idea to think about.
Would it prove out? Who knows!! Maybe some self centering air bearing forces work better if the carridge just floats!!! Or maybe Sierra and the Military could learn that for $30 a round you could CNC turn belted brass that 85 % of the time would show a
0.014 MOA advantage. Yawn. But Unbelted brass might be better. Belts are silly. Like an appendix.
We don't see Belted 6.5 Manbun.
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Jim Watson
New member
Given in the 1920's and 1930's, optics were in a more primitive state,was 2 or 3 MOA adequate or was < 1 MOA accuracy a thing for 50 yd Big Five shots?
In 1935 Ben Comfort won the Wimbledon 1000 yard match with a G&H .300 H&H.
100 14V
Of course Elmer Keith said it was his idea.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/ben-comfort-s-wimbledon-cup-rifle-comes-home/
In 1935 Ben Comfort won the Wimbledon 1000 yard match with a G&H .300 H&H.
100 14V
Of course Elmer Keith said it was his idea
Yes. There is always something. Some pretty amazing 40 rod shooting(Ned Roberts books) and 1000 yd iron sighted BPCR shooting has been done,too.
Shooters being what they are, belted magnums were used to fling chunks 1000 yds. They made it work very well.
Optics? I prize and use a Bausch and Lomb 1930's NRA model spotting scope.
Its only 15X or 20 X but I can see .22 holes in the black at 200 yds. Its a great tool.
The context of what I was saying was was in a completely different place, however. Closer to Robert Ruark and Capstick.
Jim Watson
New member
I like Layne Simpson's wisecrack
Bwana. Those buffalo sure are tough, had to shoot mine seven times.
Simpson. Had a .375, did you?
Bwana. Yeah, how did you know?
The .458 Lott came about after Jacques Lott got tossed by a buffalo that was not impressed with a .458 Winchester. Not that there weren't already full length .45s but his got noticed.
Bwana. Those buffalo sure are tough, had to shoot mine seven times.
Simpson. Had a .375, did you?
Bwana. Yeah, how did you know?
The .458 Lott came about after Jacques Lott got tossed by a buffalo that was not impressed with a .458 Winchester. Not that there weren't already full length .45s but his got noticed.
Cool.
However we got here,the thread context of the OP was about optimizing belt/chamber precision fitting as a path to accuracy.
Accuracy has certainly been been achieved with belted cartridges.
Given the rest of ammunition development (,no more cordite, not concerned with P-14 actions, etc, clean sheet of paper), I would not use a belted case ,particularly the belt, as the foundation of achieving accuracy.
I.personally, with examples like the 404 Jeffreys based cartridges and the RUM's and 376 Steyr, would leave the belt behind.
I was trying to point out, for the hunting belted magnums were developed,, if a scope was present,it would usually be 4X or less.
Individuals might do anything, but I doubt the PH/guide of the time would be part of many over 300 yd shots.
The PH/Guide would have to do the follow up.
Sub MOA accuracy and reloading were not top criteria.
We can disagree, but Im not a big Layne Simpon fan. IMO,the STW's are silly. I have no real interest in a .458. I'm not an Africa Hunter. Rumour has it ball powder deterioration had something to do with underperforming .458 Win loads. IDK.
I think there are hunting rifles and stopping rifles. Two different things.
The client who can place a bullet selected by the PH for a shot selected by the PH will often be best served by a 375 H+H . A 375 H+H is often the biggest gun a client can keep his eyes open for the shot. If a client can deliver the shot the PH directs, it will typically work,yes? Squinting harder and a bigger trigger jerk behind a bigger gun will not make for greater success.
When things go wrong, yes,its time for the 458 Lott or the 470 Nitro or whatever the PH prefers.
But IMO,its a mistake to hand Alvin Hedgefund a 458 Lott on his once in a lifetime Safari .
Don't forget the 375 H+H has served quite well.
However we got here,the thread context of the OP was about optimizing belt/chamber precision fitting as a path to accuracy.
Accuracy has certainly been been achieved with belted cartridges.
Given the rest of ammunition development (,no more cordite, not concerned with P-14 actions, etc, clean sheet of paper), I would not use a belted case ,particularly the belt, as the foundation of achieving accuracy.
I.personally, with examples like the 404 Jeffreys based cartridges and the RUM's and 376 Steyr, would leave the belt behind.
I was trying to point out, for the hunting belted magnums were developed,, if a scope was present,it would usually be 4X or less.
Individuals might do anything, but I doubt the PH/guide of the time would be part of many over 300 yd shots.
The PH/Guide would have to do the follow up.
Sub MOA accuracy and reloading were not top criteria.
We can disagree, but Im not a big Layne Simpon fan. IMO,the STW's are silly. I have no real interest in a .458. I'm not an Africa Hunter. Rumour has it ball powder deterioration had something to do with underperforming .458 Win loads. IDK.
I think there are hunting rifles and stopping rifles. Two different things.
The client who can place a bullet selected by the PH for a shot selected by the PH will often be best served by a 375 H+H . A 375 H+H is often the biggest gun a client can keep his eyes open for the shot. If a client can deliver the shot the PH directs, it will typically work,yes? Squinting harder and a bigger trigger jerk behind a bigger gun will not make for greater success.
When things go wrong, yes,its time for the 458 Lott or the 470 Nitro or whatever the PH prefers.
But IMO,its a mistake to hand Alvin Hedgefund a 458 Lott on his once in a lifetime Safari .
Don't forget the 375 H+H has served quite well.
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The P14 technically did not exist prior to WW1 (1914-1918) since it used Mauser patents, and it was produced in secret in the USA until the USA entered the war in 1917. The actions were probablly not available to rifle builders until after the rifles were surplused post WW2. I have never seen a fine British bolt action built on a P14 action, although they may have used them.What geometry would perform the function of a rim,yet stack and feed in the available P-14 actions? Remember the P-14 Enfields were a resource . The 303 Rim boltface was amazingly the right size for the H+H case, and the length of the action,coincidentaly ,was 375 H+H length. HMMM. Almost like someone had a pile of P-14 actions to rework.
As much as we US residents think the 375 H&H was the be all-end all in Africa because of stories by the likes of Ruark and Hemingway, it was considered the biggest cartridge a less-experienced shooter could handle reasonably well. There are/were dozens of extremely popular dangerous game rifle cartridges, notably those from Rigby, Westley-Richards, Gibbs, Jeffery, H&H, and of course all the Nitro Express rounds. The 375 was the "jack of all trades", but stopping rifles were still big and massive cartridges used by PHs to keep the animals wounded with the 375 off their paying clients.
As far as bolt faces being the "right size", we did the same here in the USA, everything was 25-35, 30-30, 30 Remington, or 30-40 size. Now we make things .222/223, 308/30-06 or magnum size just to standardize. And there were better magnum cases to use than the belted H&H cases, those were more available after WW2 when the big surge in cartridge development hit.
Jim Watson
New member
Well, the P14 was based on the P13 which definitely predated the War.
I read in CotW about English safari rifles on the action by BSA in 1921 for their belted .26 and .33.
Interesting that hardly anybody besides BSA followed H&H with a belt. Everybody else just whipped up a rimless round to his taste. The long taper seems a H&H thing, not a Cordite thing, look at .416 Rigby with moderate taper and pretty steep shoulder.
Bwana was usually a hunter, not a shooter and expected his rifle to Just Work.
A 1970s publication described a hunter's experience with a Weatherby Mk V in .378 or .460, I misremember which. First the floor plate kicked open leaving him with a single shot. He soldered it shut. Then the extractor pulled off a rim. He bought a Brevex.
The 1939 Stoeger shows 20 Mauser actions, specific to caliber. A visitor to Steyr described shelves full of caliber specific Mannlicher Schoenauer rotary magazines.
And sawing off the barrel didn't help.
I read of PWHs getting into reloading and loading .458 with Cordite out of surplus .303. They stuffed in enough to get up into the .450 NE range.
I read in CotW about English safari rifles on the action by BSA in 1921 for their belted .26 and .33.
Interesting that hardly anybody besides BSA followed H&H with a belt. Everybody else just whipped up a rimless round to his taste. The long taper seems a H&H thing, not a Cordite thing, look at .416 Rigby with moderate taper and pretty steep shoulder.
Bwana was usually a hunter, not a shooter and expected his rifle to Just Work.
A 1970s publication described a hunter's experience with a Weatherby Mk V in .378 or .460, I misremember which. First the floor plate kicked open leaving him with a single shot. He soldered it shut. Then the extractor pulled off a rim. He bought a Brevex.
The 1939 Stoeger shows 20 Mauser actions, specific to caliber. A visitor to Steyr described shelves full of caliber specific Mannlicher Schoenauer rotary magazines.
Rumour has it ball powder deterioration had something to do with underperforming .458 Win loads.
And sawing off the barrel didn't help.
I read of PWHs getting into reloading and loading .458 with Cordite out of surplus .303. They stuffed in enough to get up into the .450 NE range.
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bacardisteve
New member
I handload for several belted magnums. If handloading you can forget the belt even exists after fire forming and headspace off the shoulder. This will only work in the rifle they were formed too and greatly increases case life.