Magazine Spring Life?

[Skans]

I will never understand the obsession with magazine springs. They are one of a dozen springs in a gun. Every spring in a gun is under constant tension - just like a loaded magazine is under tension. I have never once heard anyone suggest:

"Hey, if I carry my gun locked and cocked, won't that wear the hammer spring?"
"I have dry fired my gun a lot - do you think I need to replace the trigger return spring?"
"How often do I need to replace the striker spring?"
"If I store my gun with the slide racked back, will that weaken the recoil spring?"
"How often do you need to replace the buffer spring?"
"Should I buy some spare extractor springs to keep around in case they wear out?"

 

[Ibmikey]

Agree with Skans, All to often we have another post appear asking about springs and then the obligatiory comments about spring life ensues. I do not change springs. I have Winchesters made in the 1870's era, Colt's from the same periòd, 1911's that are almost a hundred years old and all are still goińg strong. Put the spring issue to bed and go on with life.

 

[g.willikers]

Spring life depends very much on the design and application.
Coil springs, for example, may not get particularly weaker over time, but they do get "saggy", that is they take up less space and become less effective for the application.
Ask any auto mechanic who works on suspensions and engines.
Check the at rest length of an old recoil spring as compared to a new one for comparison.
Leaf springs, and the varieties of other leverage types, can have different characteristics but the type used on the rear of pickups can get "saggy", too.
But it's a different kind of "saggy."

(Can you tell I like the word "saggy"? - It just sounds right.)
Any spring can fatigue to the point of breaking, just to add to the confusion.
Heck what can't.
Haven't ever run across a broken mag spring yet, though.
So the consensus for worry over mag springs seems to be if it works don't sweat it.
See how easy life can be.
What, me worry?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I will never understand the obsession with magazine springs. They are one of a dozen springs in a gun. Every spring in a gun is under constant tension - just like a loaded magazine is under tension.

Several points:

1) A lot of folks have experienced spring failures, or heard about them... so it seems like a bigger problem than it might actually be. Obsession might be the proper term, but in a few cases, attention to the issue is appropriate -- but probably not as much as it's discussed.

2) Every spring in a gun is NOT under constant tension. Some are almost fully relaxed most of the time. An unloaded mag spring or a recoil spring with the slide closed may nearly completely relaxed. Some of the other springs (like a slide stop spring) may be under pressure, but at levels that are not near the spring's operating limits. (That matters!)

3) Being under constant tension is NOT a problem unless, when kept in that tensed state, the spring is at or very near it's design/operating limits (what the spring CAN DO, not what the gun asks it to do.) The problems, when they occur, are seen mostly in very small guns that shoot bigger calibers, or magazines that hold an obscene amount of rounds, like 20+ 9mm, 15+ .40, etc. And even then it might not be a problem unless the springs are HELD in that compressed state for long periods.

Mag springs in a 7-round 1911 mag, for example, have plenty of reserve power. That same spring in an older -- not modified -- 1911 mag holding 8-rounds will be under greater tension for longer periods, and may not last as long. (Especially if the mags are left fully loaded.)

The mag springs used in some guns, like 9mm CZs, are the same for 10-round, 15/16-round, or 17+ round mags. In some cases, the capacity differences are the result of different followers and how far the springs are compressed -- and in a few cases to longer bases. Keep those different mags fully loaded for long periods, and you'll see some differences in performance and lifespans. That's why Wolff Springs recommends downloading a round or two for long-term storage with the hi-cap versions.​

4) Working a spring only damages the spring if doing so causes the spring to reach it's limits frequently, or for long periods. Working the spring part-way has almost no effect on spring longevity; compressing it fully can affect it greatly. That said, keeping a magazine fully loaded won't always compress the spring to its design limit. Most gun designs avoid that. Some of the newer, smaller gun, do push to or past those limits -- allowing smaller guns with larger capacities to do more than might otherwise be possible. That probably explains why SOME (but not all) hi-cap mag springs don't last as long as others.

5) Regarding storing a gun with a slide locked back, one of the participants in an earlier version of this discussion talked about THAT happening at a National Guard Armory, over the winter, when the NCOIC at the Armory stored the guns in that manner. All of those Beretta M9 recoil springs were, according to the participant, badly weakened by that form of storage, and some of the M9s wouldn't function at all. That's an anecdotal story, and maybe made up, but it makes sense -- those springs, with the slide locked back, have to be tightly compressed.

You can certainly test the recoil spring part of this discussion yourself with one of your weapons. If the recoil spring is close to a stacked state when the slide is locked back, it won't take long to find out. If you have some old, "used" recoil springs try one of them...

g.willikers notes above that he's not run across a broken mag spring, yet -- and that's because coil springs spread the work throughout the material of the spring, while leaf springs tend to concentrate the work area more. But the time a coil spring gets weak enough to break, it will have lost the ability to do work and will have been replaced. Springs fail from microfractures in the steel; with leaf springs those breaks tend to be concentrated in specific narrower areas; with coil springs they tend to occur throughout the spring's material because more of the spring material is actually working/

As g.willikers also notes, it all depends on the design of the gun, on the design of the magazine, and how the springs are used. Some of the new gun designs use springs differently than many of the older designs. Older guns were much easier on springs than some of the newer design. You can't equate an older full-size gun, so some of the the smaller, high-cap compact gun available now.

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[44 AMP]

I'd say our "obsession" with springs today, is an evolution of our obsession with springs in the past, when it WAS a valid and important concern.

I'm sure someone once asked, "is it ok to leave my wheellock spanned?" or "Is it ok to store my musket with the hammer cocked?" and things like that.

For which, the answer is "NO!!"....

Remember what they were dealing with, springs (and guns) made of IRON, or an iron alloy that just barely qualifies as steel by modern standards. Leaf springs (often made by the village smith) powered virtually ALL guns for centuries.

Old leaf springs are notorious for not doing well when left under tension for long periods. They often "take a set", and get weak, or brittle, and break.

And, like dry firing, it was something everyone knew was bad for the gun. By the time we get to the early 20th century, "modern" designs and spring technology had improved vastly, and the old concerns didn't apply AS MUCH. But they didn't go away, they just changed a bit.

My Grandfather got an Ithaca shotgun in 1909. That gun came with a guarantee IN WRITING that the springs would NEVER "take a set" Not "one year from the date of manufacture?, not even "for the lifetime of the original owner" but NEVER. They were proud of that, back then, and said so.

Also have a letter from Ithaca dated 1947, a reply to my Grandfather's concern about their guarantee. They said (in 47) that the guarantee was still good, and valid. Grandpa was also adamant about NEVER storing the gun cocked. AND, NEVER dryfiring it.

The US ARMY, in the 1970s measured the serviceability of the 1911A1 recoil spring by LENGTH. Lacking otherwise apparent damage, the springs were "good" unless shorter than the length specified in the manual, and then they were replaced.

And, not every gunmaker used good quality made springs, even when they thought they were. And also there are all the guns made by all nations under wartime production pressures. Some of them will have springs that aren't the best, especially guns made by the losing sides.

SO, concern about spring life has a long (and for a long time a valid) history. TOday, it shows in people asking questions, and people "automatically" replacing springs at set intervals.

I think it's overblown, and over-hyped today, however valid it may have been in the past.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Before Wolff started hawking their wares, no one was concerned about springs.
Quality springs are made today exactly as they were in 1850-albeit with slightly better quality control.
I deal with, and make a lot of, leaf springs. They are just fine to leave tensioned. Old leaf springs may break from useage, but I have never run across a gun or switchblade leaf spring that "got weak." I have seen many thousands of them. They don't "take a set."
Most of what is posted here is heresay. What I am telling you is from personal experience working with springs.
If a spring is going to "get weak" it will do it within the first couple of compressions- not thousands later.
Out of the thousands of springs I have made, not one has gotten weaker, and 4 have broken-all 4 from the same piece of steel.

Note: all my statements are concerning high carbon steel springs. Those made with work-hardened stainless and other materials are NOT properly made springs.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...they work harden and break..." They are flat springs. They work harden at the bends only. Springs do not lose temper from being used or compressed.
"...Before Wolff started hawking their wares..." Wolff primarily sells trigger, hammer and return springs. Most of which are needed because of frivolous U.S. law suits have caused the manufacturers to sell firearms with crappy triggers. Not mag springs. Before Wolff you had to find or make a lighter spring to do a proper trigger job.
Before there was an internet, nobody was concerned about springs, much.
"..."automatically" replacing springs at set intervals..." Suspect that has more to do with fairy tales told at IPSC/IDPA, et al matches than anything else.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Before Wolff started hawking their wares, no one was concerned about springs.
Quality springs are made today exactly as they were in 1850-albeit with slightly better quality control.

And you're the same guy who says their only purpose is to sell more springs. And when I mentioned they suggested downloading the hi-cap mag a round or two to prolong spring life, you changed the subject.

Shooters weren't concerned about springs, but they let their gunsmith fix the problem, when there was a problem. Or they sent it back to the gun's maker. But the older guns were made to a different standard, and were typically bigger than they needed to be, made with more material than needed, but not necessarily more reliable than the guns we have today.

There weren't any compact hi-cap guns back in the good old days, or flush-fit (or nearly flush-fit) 20+ round mags. A gun the size of a CZ P-01 or Glock 19 that held 13 or 14 rounds didn't exist, back then. Sub-compact guns, when they existed, tended to be very small caliber guns, or derringers. Even the Browning Hi-Power, which was an older design (and one of the first to use a flush-fit double-stack mag) held only 13 rounds -- and it was a FULL SIZE gun! There was nothing like the Rohrbaugh R9, running 9mm rounds in a gun smaller than than most .380s (and almost as small as some of the .32 acp semi-autos.) The point that YOU and others continue to ignore is that a lot of our newer GUNS are different: smaller, lighter, and even with inflation, less expensive.

While spring technology hasn't changed much in the passing years, HOW springs are used in handguns HAS changed, and that may account for the rise of Wolff Springs, ISMI, and other spring vendors.

I don't change springs until I notice a functional problem. I also don't trade cars every couple of years, either -- but many do. That may be the same mindset at play, too: the fear of problems is more powerful than the actual experience of problems...

Most of what is posted here is heresay. What I am telling you is from personal experience working with springs.

I call BS on your claim that most of what's posted here is heresay. Metallurgists who know what does and doesn't work have contributed to the discussions. (One made comments just yesterday!!) Other engineers who work with aviation and space applications have also contributed, and some of these folks have posted a number of technical links over the years, as well. You've had access to those links but apparently never bothered to investigate them or refute their content.

If a spring is going to "get weak" it will do it within the first couple of compressions- not thousands later.

Out of the thousands of springs I have made, not one has gotten weaker, and 4 have broken-all 4 from the same piece of steel.

I deal with, and make a lot of, leaf springs. They are just fine to leave tensioned. Old leaf springs may break from useage, but I have never run across a gun or switchblade leaf spring that "got weak." I have seen many thousands of them. They don't "take a set."

Your claim that leaf springs don't take a set may be correct, but may also be totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is primarily about the coil springs used in semi-auto handguns. Coil springs do take a set.

Doubt it? Measure a recoil spring when it is first installed and measure it again a couple of weeks later after only limited use. You will see a measurable difference! Coil springs DO break in auto suspensions, too, but it's far more common for them to sag. A car owner can continue to drive a car with sagging coil springs -- but he or she may start slowing down before the next speed bump or rail crossing; a gun with a weakened (sagging) recoil or mag spring, however, has a gun that won't function properly (or at all), and that gun will be out of action until the spring is replaced. It won't happen to most folks, but it can happen.

You also continue to talk around a key point: that leaf springs, your specialty, and coil springs are fundamentally different in how they function and how they fail!. While similar materials can go into their makeup, coil springs work differently than leaf springs. Almost all of the spring material in a coil spring is involved in the work being done while a more concentrated part of the metal in a leaf spring does the work (and suffers the consequences if the metal is over-worked.) In autos, leaf springs also have a structural role -- and that may be true in some knife designs, as well -- but coil springs in handguns, by design, don't do that.

I'd argue that the springs you make and work with are arguably the knife-spring equivalents of the mag or recoil springs for 1911 magazines: good, solid springs that aren't over-stressed and which can't be over-stressed, if made right of the proper materials.

What you do is make new springs that copy an original design; those springs are intended to fit and function within the knife design's parameters. You're not trying to make the knives smaller, lighter, or more powerful. And as a consequence, there's aren't many knives that are the equivalent of a high-cap sub-compact 9mm or something like the Rohrbaugh R9 or the Ruger LCS. If the knife was a lot smaller, (as those two semi-autos are) that knife is NOT going to be able to do what a knife has to do (as the blade size and shape is the equivalent of a gun's bullet caliber and weight.) And, until you can show us a leaf recoil spring or a leaf mag spring that will fit and function in a handgun, your spring expertise may not have a lot of application in this discussion.

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[ifithitu]

I don't know how long a magazine spring last,but if my magazine hole 12 rounds I load 10 rounds and one in the chamber to take pressure off the spring.Old war habit hard to break.

 

[wingman]

I recently left 2 magazines loaded for a year on a Makarov high capacity 10 rounds type. Upon firing slide would not lock back on last round once I changed springs all was well. In 50 years have not had a mag spring failure.
I guess we could say it was not a spring failure but slide lock back design.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

And I have magazines that have been loaded for 40 years that work fine,

And Walt- I'm on a business trip, so I don't have much time to spend here-but I will say this: springs are springs.
Leaf springs actually have to work much harder than coil springs in magazines.
All springs take a set the first few times they are compressed.
Notice I have not commented on subcompact pistols. Their springs may get overcompressed.

 

[Ibmikey]

Bill, You are pushing a dead horse up a hill, some of these "learned" folks have opinions that experience cannot overcome. I have been told through the years springs need to be relaxed every so often and also just the opposite, never worry about cycling them. I have had an old leaf spring break because of rust contamination but 100 + year old spriings in my Colt and Winchester rifles work just as well as the day they were made. Also, I had occasion to remove the ammo from a WWI vet's 1911 pistol that had been loaded since coming home from "The Great War". The pistol was corroded into the holster as was the magazinesop m in a leather carrier, when finally removed the ammo slid out of the magazines under spring tension. I am still using the mags but unfortundately the pistol was badly pitted.
I recently bought a new recoil spring for a Israeli Hi Power, not because the spring was defective but because it was obviously cut shorter...thanks to Brownells it functions just fine now.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Bill, You are pushing a dead horse up a hill, some of these "learned" folks have opinions that experience cannot overcome. I have been told through the years springs need to be relaxed every so often and also just the opposite, never worry about cycling them. I have had an old leaf spring break because of rust contamination but 100 + year old spriings in my Colt and Winchester rifles work just as well as the day they were made. Also, I had occasion to remove the ammo from a WWI vet's 1911 pistol that had been loaded since coming home from "The Great War". The pistol was corroded into the holster as was the magazinesop m in a leather carrier, when finally removed the ammo slid out of the magazines under spring tension. I am still using the mags but unfortundately the pistol was badly pitted.
I recently bought a new recoil spring for a Israeli Hi Power, not because the spring was defective but because it was obviously cut shorter...thanks to Brownells it functions just fine now.

You seem to be VERY SELECTIVE in what your read (of what I wrote), and the examples you offer. I also said that 1911 mags will likely outlive the shooter, even if left fully loaded.

You will also note, that the only springs that are likely to be affected are the coil springs that are stressed to or past their design limits. For most full-size guns NOT running very hi-cap mags, the springs aren't likely to get compressed to or past their design limits.

Older guns were NEVER designed to push past their design limits -- just the newer ones, which are smaller, use the same springs to do more work (as in hi-cap mags), and use less springs to do more work (as in the sub-compact guns mentioned.)

Bill focuses on leaf springs in knives, and I'm sure the springs he builds are excellent springs. But they way they work it almost impossible to push them beyond their design limits, unless he makes then of different steel or smaller. There's no reason for him to do that.

I've also got mags that have never had springs replaced. Most of the mags I used in IDPA for years in my full-size guns (10-rounders picked up for that venue only) are still running like new.

In an earlier message I in this same discussion, I wrote:

The only CHANGE to any of the variables in this discussion in recent years is the move to new (sub-compact) gun designs that are much smaller (with less room for spring material) or to guns with much higher-capacity mags. In both of those situations, the springs are asked to do more in less space with less material than once was the case. In SOME of those cases, the springs can't last as long.

For those of us who are shooting full-size guns and not keeping our very hi-cap mags fully loaded all the time, spring wear will probably not be a problem. (And as others have said, replacing a recoil spring or a mag spring isn't all that expensive or hard to do...)[/QUOTE]

Do you disagree with those statements?​

 

[qkarl]

Buy some extra mag springs then do whatever you like with your mags. Keep them loaded, empty them out, whatever. Springs are cheap, just test your mags once in a while.

 

[Ibmikey]

Qkarl, So much wisdom in such a short statement, I have to agree and hope it will place an end to this spring " discussion".

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Leaf springs actually have to work much harder than coil springs in magazines.
All springs take a set the first few times they are compressed.
Notice I have not commented on subcompact pistols. Their springs may get overcompressed.

In making your statement above, I think you're assuming that all coil springs in modern gun are made to the same standards you use when making your knives and knife springs -- and that's arguably not the case (and probably not always possible). You are clearly averse to building a spring that is over-stressed when used... It would probably be difficult to do so in a knife, unless you used inferior materials or spring-making practices -- or designed a spring with less material to make the knife smaller or lighter! That isn't necessary or likely even desirable with a knife, but it might be appropriate with a semi-auto.

Some of the mag and recoil springs in newer gun designs and newer high cap mags appear to be INTENTIONALLY OVER-COMPRESSED -- because they can't get a gun that must be very small to function otherwise. They also can't get enough rounds in a very high-capacity mag without making the spring suffer. More work done with less material leads to shorter spring life in both cases.

Intentional over-stressing of the springs WAS NOT the practice with many older guns, and certainly was not the case with the 7-round 1911s. (Springs in 8-round 1911 mags, using the same tube and base, however, don't seem to be as reliable or durable as the 7-rounders.) INTENTIONAL OVER-STRESSING SPRINGS is still NOT a common practice with many new guns, but once you start getting to the smaller designs and higher capacities, spring life can be at risk. The Browning Hi-Power, which originally held 13 rounds, was once the standard for hi-cap mags. Now a number of newer guns put 20+ rounds into almost the same grip space. To do that, something has to give; in a few cases, at least, it is spring life.

Leaf springs in cars DO sag and BREAK-- and you can find examples in a lot of junk yards. Coil springs in cars break less often, and sagging seems more common. I've experienced both in cars I've owned since I started driving in the early 1960s -- and for the first 30 years or so, I did most of those kind of repairs myself.

Do some folks obsess about springs? Yes. Without cause? Perhaps.

But the folks who routinely change springs on a schedule do it for the peace of mind it offers them. I believe that if you shoot your weapons regularly you'll likely notice spring problems before it matters -- but some folks don't want to run that risk. Springs are cheap and easily changed.
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