Machine guns as investments

I like the idea of machine guns as investments for so many different reasons.

1. They are serious investments and they are fun! You can't take out a 401K and play with it. I have a friend who invests in high end artwork, and he thoroughly enjoys it. Further, he has never lost money on a piece of high end artwork.

2. Other than old collectibles, no other gun will give a possible return. Sure, an m16a2 may run $30,000+, but its actually cheaper than a Sig 226 at $900 or any other modern gun. Why? Because the 226 won't go up in value, and the moment you take it out of the dealer's store, it drops in value. NFA items have historically proven to only rise in value. This means that the $900 you spent on the 226 or USP or 1911 is gone, and only about half the value is left in the gun, whereas every single dollar, all $30,000 of it, is still impounded in the m16a2.

The main reason machine guns are a good investment is this...

3. The pool of available NFA transferrable machine guns will NEVER ever increase. It is estimated that only 100,000 - 250,000 exist, with many being turned into authorities on collection days or just being lost or destroyed. This means demand is always increasing while supply is always decreasing.

The value of a collectible is based on supply and demand, and the existence of a marketplace to create liquidity. I can not think of a single investment grade collectible that where supply is big enough to create market place liquidity, and where the supply always shrinks, while demand is always increasing.

Gold, they can always mine more of it.

Land, they can always develop more of it.

Stocks and bonds, they can always issue more of it.

NFA transferrable machine guns, there will never be more.

Artwork, antiques, and even collectible guns like Colt revolvers, are not all that liquid because to get fair value you have to auction them off.

Of course, there are risks, for example, theft, destruction, or legislative interference.

As far as legislative interference, I highly doubt that the NFA or the '86 act will ever be repealed. The courts have opined that machine guns are dangerous and unusual and not protected by the second amendment. So I sleep easy at night knowing that the only president that might move to repeal the NFA is President Rand Paul.
 
Perhaps the NFA or 86 ban will never be repealed. But don't underestimate the states. Many of them are throwing around ideas of laws pretty much voiding any federal firearm laws (including the NFA and '86 FOPA) within their states. And imposing legal charges on any federal agent who would try to enforce them.
Sure these laws are technically invalid since the feds trump states, but in practicality. The feds may not be willing to make a fuss over it which creates a semi-legal market for machine guns in those states. If it happens in your state, then suddenly who would want to pay $100,000 for a "legal" M16 when they can make their own for under $1,000
 
A deposit box at a bank is very affordable.
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A deposit box big enough to hold a number of M16s will run into a good bit of money over 2 decades.
As far as legislative interference, I highly doubt that the NFA or the '86 act will ever be repealed.
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That's not the only type of legislative interference that could affect the value of your investment. They could freeze transfers or make it much more difficult or expensive to qualify to purchase machineguns which could effectively prevent you from selling your "investment".
This means demand is always increasing...
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Practical demand is a function not only of supply but also of price. If the prices rise high enough, the market will eventually slow down. It's one thing to pay as much for a machinegun as you paid for your car, it's another thing to pay as much as you paid for your house. At some point the game will get so rich that people can't afford to play. I'd hate to be saddled with a few hundred thousand dollars of "investments" that are worth so much that I can't sell them.
...they are fun! You can't take out a 401K and play with it.
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If you want fun, buy a machinegun and play with it. If you want an investment, look at something that's easier to store, less volatile and harder to break.
I've seen pictures of what a 401k investment looked like after after a stock broker got done with it in 2007.
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There are all kinds of ways to lose money in investments. Even if one could prove that investing via 401K is a bad idea, that wouldn't prove (or even imply) that buying machine guns is a good idea. They could both be bad ideas.
 
So I sleep easy at night knowing that the only president that might move to repeal the NFA is President Rand Paul.
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If that were to come to pass, would collectors mourn the loss in value or celebrate it as a victory for the 2A?
 
If Rand Paul were elected president, which would never happen, then guys like me would grieve for two weeks then we'd be really happy.

If you can afford $30,000 for a gun, even if it's an investment, then I think you can sustain a loss.

If you were stupid enough to put all your investment eggs in one basket, then you deserve the loss.

I have personal experience in this issue, btw. Back about 13 or so years ago, when they had the 10 year assault weapons ban, I was one of those guys who paid $3000 for a grandfathered assault weapon (ar types rifles). I then took a break from the shooting sports to go back to school. I graduated and recently became very successful. About two ago, I went to a Cabelas and saw that ar type rifles were selling for $1000. Perplexed, I asked the guy behind the case why these guns were so cheap, as I had paid $3000 for mine. He said, 'oh you bought yours during the ban like ten years ago. Now they make them new and sell them for like $1000'.

I was shocked and went home and read that the ban was only ten years. I didn't realize, at the time I bought the rifles, that it was a temporary ban.

The sadness lasted 2 days, and then I went and bought a new AR type rifle.

Now granted, the ARs I bought, I paid $9000 for three of them. A NFA gun is worth a lot more, so I'd be sadder for much longer.

But come on, President Rand Paul. Ha! What? Are they gonna elect a Hollywood actor as president? Ha! And is Jerry Lewis going to be vice president?! And Jack Benny is Secretary of the Treasury?! Ha!
 
If that were to come to pass, would collectors mourn the loss in value or celebrate it as a victory for the 2A?
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I would celebrate the victory, even though my AC556 would likely lose at least $6,000 in value.
 
Holy smokes...

The devil has come home. Looks like Missouri passed a law that would have attempted to invalidate the NFA of '36, on a state level. Thankfully, the law was vetoed by the governor.

Have the people of Missouri not heard of the Supremacy Clause?

http://news.yahoo.com/mo-gov-vetoes-bill-nullified-fed-gun-laws-155930536.html

We machine gun owners would like to thank Governor Nixon for keeping machine guns out of the hands of dangerous criminals.

Seriously, I know I am a bit biased on this topic, but imagine if machine guns were as readily available as a semi auto. The moment the first machine gun mass shooting occurs, we can all expect to lose our guns.
 
Seriously, I know I am a bit biased on this topic, but imagine if machine guns were as readily available as a semi auto.
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For criminals, they are. I don't see any difference. Drill a couple of holes, install a part or two or three - you've got a machine gun. Or, order one of those 80% Glock converter doo-dads and you have a pistol machineg un. Or, buy a $350 slide-fire device and you have a legal machine gun.

Big deal. I say everyone should have the same access to machine guns as they do to handguns. Heck, I could even live with a requirement that all machineguns must transfer on a Form 4 (existing laws) as long as they permit the manufacture and registration of new ones.

The only reason there is a demand for machine guns is because it separates the haves from the have-nots at gun ranges. Having a machine gun (for some) and shooting it at a gun range is like wearing a Patek Philippe to a pool party.
 
I respectfully disagree. It's undeniable that there have only been three incidences of an NFA weapon being used in a crime.

While we would like to use the 'criminals will do it anyways, it just deprives the law abiding citizen' argument, fact is that the machine gun ban has reduced machine gun violence to practically zero.
 
Machineguntony posted
imagine if machine guns were as readily available as a semi auto. The moment the first machine gun mass shooting occurs, we can all expect to lose our guns
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I disagree. A huge number of people ALREADY think "assault weapons" are machine guns; it's amazing how many people don't know the difference between semi- and full-auto. And it's always annoying when people come into our shop and point to the wall of semi-auto rifles and make machine gun noises.

Here's a recent quote from President Obama:
t is possible for us to create common-sense gun safety measures that respect the traditions of gun ownership in this country and hunters and sportsmen, but also make sure that we don’t have another 20 children in a classroom gunned down by a semiautomatic weapon – by a fully automatic weapon in that case, sadly.
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Or Michael Bloomberg:
Pistols are different. You have to pull the trigger each time. With an assault weapon you basically hold it down and it goes <machine gun noise>.
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Machineguntony posted
I respectfully disagree. It's undeniable that there have only been three incidences of an NFA weapon being used in a crime.

While we would like to use the 'criminals will do it anyways, it just deprives the law abiding citizen' argument, fact is that the machine gun ban has reduced machine gun violence to practically zero.
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Yes, machine gun violence is practically zero, but that doesn't mean the ban had an effect on actual crime or gun deaths.

Full-auto is highly overrated. It looks and sounds scary, it puts a whole lotta rounds downrange in a short period of time, and it scares the heck out of the general public; but I'm convinced if more criminals and mass-shooters used full-auto weapons there would be fewer deaths.

It's very difficult to shoot a full-auto weapon accurately and efficiently unless you're on a bipod or tripod. It's amazing how fast even a high-capacity magazine is depleted when firing full-auto. Most criminals and mass-shooters would spray-and-pray, miss most of their shots, and run out of ammo too fast.
 
"I respectfully disagree. It's undeniable that there have only been three incidences of an NFA weapon being used in a crime."

Legally registered NFA regulated items maybe. Criminals use SBS, SBRs, supressors, and machine guns in crimes. There have been a lot more than three of those instances.
 
Only if you truly believe that out government will never force you to sell your guns to them at pennies to a dollar at some future date. This is not a chance I am willing to take. I no longer collect guns. Just use them.
 
Sounds like you've already convinced yourself that machine guns are a terrific investment. May be. But here's my .02 on the issue.

I started collecting machine guns in 1963 when I acquired my first .50 M2HB for $150. That gun today is worth a lot more than $150, true. However that increase really didn't come about until after 1986, and it's fluctuating these days, up and down. Who's to say it won't stay steady as the price of ammo goes upwards, and maybe even drop some as the availability of ammo becomes more of an issue.

My current investments other than firearms paid me 10.9% last year without touching any of the principal. I don't think machine guns will increase at that rate or anything near that, and you won't see any dividend until you sell one of them, thus reducing your principal. Same issue as gold. By the way, do you realize what gold has done in the past 9 months? From $1800 all the way down to $1200. THAT sure turned out to be a great investment.

Further, I checked the MG Price Guide today to see what some guns are selling for compared to 5 years ago. This is interesting:

1928 Thompson
July 07 $22,000
July 13 $18,000

M1 Thompson
July 07 $17,500
July 13 $19,000

M3 Grease Gun
July 07 $18,000
July 13 $15,000

A nice exception--
1921/28 Colt Thompson
July 07 $30,000
July 13 $48,000

So yes, some machine guns do go up in value, but certainly not all, and if you pick the wrong one, you lose big. Along that line, here are a couple of beltfeds which are of particular interest to me:

1917 BMG C&R gun
July 07 $40,000
July 13 $22,000

1919 BMG C&R gun
July 07 $25,000
July 13 $16,000

I'm sure glad I didn't buy either of these for investment.
 
Diversify. If you do use NFA as an investment, use other investment vehicles also. I know guys putting Colt Pythons in their IRA's.
 
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