M16 full auto or not?

Just so we're not talking in circles . . .
I also went to MCRD (back in 1976), and we were issued M16A1 rifles, which had a 3-position switch (safe, semi, auto). While there, we were only allowed to use the "hose" button a few times. As my career progressed, I got to play with a variety of destructive devices, some designed for sustained fire, others not. Then, through a series of poor choices, I wound up in a Recon batallion, then a Force Recon detachment. While I was there, there was a tremendous amount of emphasis on marksmanship, as you can probably imagine, and automatic fire was supposed to be limited to 3-round bursts. Under stress, people tend to do silly things (like forget to let go of the go button), but there were consequences for doing so. Funny thing I noticed was that even the M16A2 rifles they started issuing in 1985 had the same selector switch (safe, semi, auto). I said all that to say this: automatic fire is firing more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, so "full auto" (sustained automatic fire) and "3-round bursts" are both fully automatic fire.

Also, the M16, the M16A1, and the newer M16A3 have no burst capability, while the M16A2 does.
 
A friend of mine just purchased a cherry M16. It set him back $15K. I don't think he's goning to let me shoot it though :(. He's packing it away. He'll get a better return than my 401K probably.
 
M16 A1 Full Auto (i have it)
M16 A2 3rd Burst (i have it)
M16 A3 Full Auto (fired but dont have it)
M16 A4 Full Auto (dont have it)

M4 3rd Burst (i have it)
M4A1 Full Auto (i have it)

What really is usefull would be a four way switch. Safe Semi 2burst Auto.

2 burst like in AN94 is more effective if you want to double tap and almost hit the same spot since the recoil will be surpassed by the rate of fire. Tripple burst usually has 2 round almost at the same spot while 3rd deviates a bit.
 
Uhhhhhh no...draftees have absolutley zilch to do with why they went to 3 rnd burst. The troops who were drafted got the exact same training as troops who volunteered, before, during and after the Vietnam war
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Actually, the idea that the three round burst setting was a response to experiences in Vietnam is 100% correct. There was a perception among the powers that be that troops in Vietnam were zipping off 20 or 30 round bursts any time they even thought they were engaging a bad guy.

From hearing what veterans have to say, reading first hand accounts, etc., I would say that things varied a lot. Some units at some times were much better with fire discipline than other units/other years during the conflict. But in some cases it was probably a pretty accurate description of events.

Regardless, +1 on the previous posters who've noted that the three round burst setting is an attempt at a technical fix for a training issue. And the problem having been "fixed" by technical means, I guess it was sort of supposed to have gone away entirely -- my recollection of pre-9/11 Big Army training was almost zero training on burst with the A2. I did a decent amount of training with auto on the M4A1 when assigned to a USASOC unit after that, but the emphasis for most engagements and scenarios is on semi with the rifle/carbine in Big Army or SOF. (And ranges rated for fully automatic fire can be harder to get than those for semi small arms training, on a bureaucratic note . . .)
 
Alright I'm going to purposely throw my thread off-topic here:

What about the M4 carbines? Are those F/A or are they 3-round burst also?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Carbine

Wiki's pretty solid on this stuff.

Going back to the point of 3-round, my understanding is the burst fire was intended for area targets, not just to throw more bullets at a point target, but I'm rusty on knowledge. Beyond that, I can dream up situations where burst would be an asset over semi-auto (though I do think semi-auto with a rifle capable of any precision is the most important selector setting) but I'll forego such longwinded supposition for the time being.
 
Actually, the idea that the three round burst setting was a response to experiences in Vietnam is 100% correct. There was a perception among the powers that be that troops in Vietnam were zipping off 20 or 30 round bursts any time they even thought they were engaging a bad guy.
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Yeah i know...Thats what I said...but it had nothing to do with with "draftees" or "conscripts" as they were called. :rolleyes:
 
While argued a lot, the fact that too many targets needed too many hits to stop fights is no longer up for argument.
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I'd like to hear your sources as to why this is now a fact. No military personnel I've talked to that were actually in combat on a regular basis in the current Middle Eastern conflict have expressed dissatisfaction with the 5.56mm round.

I'd also be willing to bet that the people (If you can call them that) on the receiving end were dissatisfied with the terminal effectiveness of the round.
 
IMHO, I think the FA instead of the 3-round burst is much better. If your in a combat situation and you need surpression fire from an ally, It'll be harder to do with a 3-round burst than an FA.
 
several branches use the a3, its more of a security weapon for bases and storhouses and the such. the a4 is the standard issue, with some a2s around. the coast guard has a2s. i think they use some type of hollowpoint in those too now. at least the .40s we have have hollowpoints, not the politically correct geneva stuff.
 
The 3 round burst was put in after Vietnam so conscripts,
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the m16 is not full auto..it was at one point around the vietnam era,
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NOPE, the 3 round burst was NOT put in place after Vietnam. The military used M16a1 with full auto throughout the 70s, 80s, and a good part of the 90s. Most of the troops who went to the first Gulf War went with full auto M16s. Got a story about how they didn't understand trigger control because they were drafted?
 
As of 2005, Mech infantry units still had M231c's in their armories. It's an M16 that fires full auto from the open bolt, they have no sights, no buttstock, and 3 buffer springs. Those were pretty mean.
 
Art, and congress finds it difficult to understand why the Marines still want battleships........
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Let's veer this off subject for a moment. The Iowa class Battle Ship carries 9 16 inch guns. Each gun fires a high explosive shell weighing 2700 pounds. Each gun can be independently targeted for range, and each turret for windage. By using GPS and computer targeting and synchronization, the guns can be fired as to bracket a reasonably large area causing a Monroe type effect which might turn a city block into ruble with a single salvo. Even if it didn't destroy all the buildings, no human inside the box could survive the compression of converging blast waves. That's the theory anyway.

Now you show me a marine that wouldn't like to see something like that.
 
The difference in fate of fire between multible 3 rd bursts and full auto is pretty small, but that small delay between bursts makes it easier to keep rounds on target. I think that the uses for even the burst function is pretty limited. Except for MOUT, near ambush (every other weapon to avoid a lull in fire), or break contact it is a waste.
 
I'd rather our soldiers have SAFE---SEMI---AUTO and properly utilize their training to control FA fire to controlled bursts, as they are trained.
 
I've been in the guard for six and a half years, deployed once, going back soon.
We still have A2's, but M4's are trickling in. Everything operates SAFE--SEMI--BURST. This summer's training was the first time we've done burst mode training with live ammo. We shot a few CQB tables from 50yd-7yd on burst. A controlled pair from SEMI gets you a better result, IMHO. AUTO would be neat, but it would cost a LOT to train on trigger control. There'd be lots of 7 and 10 rounds bursts until Joe figures out when to release the trigger. That would get expensive for Uncle Sam very quickly.

As for the real world, a SAW or two can supply plenty of cover fire. Augment with 240B and M2, there's not much need for Auto.

Now to get back to the question asked: Is the M16 F/A? Yes and no. A1-yes, A2-no, A3- I don't know- never even seen one, A4- no. M4A1- no (just in case you were curious)
 
Alright I'm going to purposely throw my thread off-topic here:

What about the M4 carbines? Are those F/A or are they 3-round burst also?
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Both. General issue is burst only. SF can use a F/A model.
 
dchi & nate45....Cool! were you guys in armor?

When we fired in Germany we always were given a case of ammo each of .45 and 5.56. Since there were mostly Tankers only a handful of us had M16's The standing rule was to bring no ammo back because we would have to count it. So we burned it frankly through lots and lots of rock and roll. :eek: I found the only way to keep my hits on target through a full 28 rnd mag was to shoot from the prone with my forearm fist stuck in the front sling loop.:)

True, the M16 made a poor light machine gun but it beat the hell out of the M3 grease gun. Every tank loader was issued one of those. Now they get the M240 with hand stocks.:D

Ken
 
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