M1 Chambering When Clip Inserted

Art,

The left-right problem you mention is well documented in Julian Hatcher's "The Book Of The Garand" and other sources. Apparently, John Garand designed the action correctly. However, when the government gave out the first contract, the manufacturer took a small short cut during tooling, in a place that wasn't considered critical. Evidently it was, because it caused a problem with clips that were loaded with the top round on the right. The problem was not in feeding the top round, but in feeding the second to last round. For a while there, the government stated taht all clips had to be loaded with the top round to the left. Anyway, then good old John C. discovered the problem, the tooling process was corrected, and the problem went away. Now, you will find that almost all surplus ammo loaded into clips is loaded with the top round to the right -- that's done because it's easier for a right handed person to insert and push the clip in if the top round is to the right. And you know the military -- they never made any concessions of left-handed folks, until they put the bump on the side of the M-16.
 
Dave,

If your M1 is operating correctly, as Robert Foote's apparently is, you won't have to worry about "M1 Thumb" if you do it correctly.

After inserting the clip until it latches, the operating rod and bolt will not close completely until you remove thumb pressure from the top of the clip. When you do remove thumb pressure, do it as follows:

(1) Do it quickly. Remember, you're trying to get your thumb out of there before the bolt closes.

(2) When you insert the clip, the fingers and palm of your right hand should move down along the side of the receiver, while your thumb points down and presses on the top round in the clip. When the clip is all the way in, the heel of your hand (just above your little finger) should be in front of the operating rod handle. As long as your hand is in that position, with your fingers pointing at the ground, the bolt can't close all the way.

(3) When you remove thumb pressure, don't lift your hand straight up. Rather, "rotate" your hand, using the area closest to the operating rod handle as the pivot point, so that your fingers move toward a position where they are pointing toward the muzzle, rather than toward the ground. It's almost as if you were raising your hand quickly to your forehead to salute. If you do it that way, your thumb has to be well clear of the action before the operating rod handle can get past the heel of your hand.

I learned this method from my instructor when I first shot the M1 in the service in the '50s, and I've never gotton M1 thumb.

Good luck,

--Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave AA:
Hi guys, I just bought an M1, and I haven't shot it yet. Thanks for the thread, very informative! Now when I load this thing, I won't lose my thumb if I keep pressure on the top round and release it "smartly"? That's what I've been told, but I have no first hand experience. [/quote]
 
Bob - I did as you requested and have just spent a rather interesting (for me) 45 minutes with my Garand.

With the action and the barrel assembly removed from the stock, I'd slowly push the clip in (I always load my clips top round right) watching for when the operating rod catch would rotate down far enough to release the operating rod. When the operating rod was released, it would move forward and begin to strip the top round from the clip.

During this drill, I had the knife edge of my hand fairly close to the op rod handle as a hedge against getting my thumb skooshed. Also, because the rifle was disassembled, the receiver legs were resting on my desk, which rendered the whole procedure awkward. Still, after 8 attempts, it boiled down to this - push clip down, op rod catch begins to rotate down. At point of clip latch, op rod catch is now fully down releasing bolt, starting to strip top round off, etc.

I couldn't duplicate what I described last night about the bolt somehow resting behind the clip and then only stripping a round when thumb pressure was released.

Hmmm....

Reassembled the rifle and tried again. Same result. Tried a different parkerized clip. Same result. The bolt would move forward, begin to chamber a round, but the pressure of my thumb pushing down on that top round would not allow the bolt to close until I removed that pressure (thumb). When I removed my thumb, the bolt would strip the round and close like greased lightning.

Based on this, I don't believe that normal operation of the Garand has the bolt not begin to strip the round until thumb pressure is released. Quite the contrary -

Insert clip until it latches. Maintain thumb pressure on top round in clip.

When clip is latched, bolt will move forward and begin to strip the top round. The thumb on the top round exerts more pressure than the bolt can overcome and stops.

Lift thumb and rotate out of the way and bolt will close and lock.

Bob, other than what you've already tried, I can only think that you might have a weak op rod spring, the op rod spring is unlubricated, or there's some kind of a 'kink' in the op rod itself.

Your Garand doesn't have enough "oomph" to complete the loading operation and those are the most obvious causes I can think of.

Good luck and HTH!

Cliff


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobRowe:
Cliff,

I would really appreciate it if you would do me a favor. Take the stock off of your rifle, and then insert a clip the way you normally do. While you're still maintaining thumb pressure after the clip latches, look closely at the action parts (operating rod catch, magazine follower, follower arm, etc. While you're looking at the action parts, release thumb pressure. See if you can see what action parts move that cause the bolt to move the rest of the way forward. Thanks.
[/quote]
 
Cliff,

First of all, thank you very much for going to the trouble of trying my request with your Garand. Now, first, I think I can supply you with a little information:

There is a reason why your M1 would load properly with the rifle disassembled into the three major groups. In the trigger housing group there is a spring that serves two purposes -- it serves as a spring for the safety, and it also serves as a clip ejection spring. If you look inside the trigger housing group, you'll see it against the closed side of the housing. It's shaped somewhat like a shepherd's crook. The short end of the spring provides pressure for the safety. The long end of the spring presses against the bottom of the clip and serves as the clip ejection spring (not to be confused with the clip latch spring).

So, with the rifle assembled, when you insert a full clip, you're initially pushing against the resistance of the operating rod spring pressing a couple of parts which press against the magazine follower. When the clip gets near the bottom of the magazine well (at a point before the clip latches) the bottom corner of the clip also presses against the clip ejection spring in the trigger housing group. That spring is kept in a compressed position as long as the clip latch is engaged.

When the rounds are fired, the follower works is way up through the clip. When the last round is fired, the clip latch is disengaged, and the clip ejection spring decompresses, forcing the empty clip out of the rifle.

The reason that your rifle didn't load correctly when it was disassembled is because the trigger group was not attached to the action. Therefore, the clip ejection spring wasn't pressing against the the bottom of the clip. You see, it's not your thumb pressing against the top round that causes too much friction for the bolt to overcome. The bolt could easilt overcome that friction. If you don't believe that, try pressing against the top of the bolt with your thumb as it is closing, and see if you can stop it with thumb friction alone! No, the reason that thumb pressure on the top round keeps the bolt from going forward is because you are actually pressing the magazine down a little more than it needs to be. Somehow (I haven't fugured out how yet), that extrapressure and movement on the clip prevents the bolt and operating rod from moving forward. When you release your thumb pressure on the clip, the clip ejection spring (in the trigger housing group)pushes up on the bottom of the clip, moving the clip up just a little, and that is what allows the bolt and operating rod to slam forward. That little movement changes the relationship of the action parts forward of the magazine, or chamges the "tilt" of the rounds in the magazine, or something.

I'l bet that if you attach the trigger housing group to the bottom of the action, without the stock group, and latch it in, and then insert a clip, your rifle will load just as well as it does when it's fully assembled. I would advise resting it on the bench though, because it's a little awkward to handle without the stock attached.

Anyway, regarding my rifle: I've got two tumblers -- one with walnut media and one with corn cob media. I let some clips tumble in each of them for about nine hours today, but it didn't do much for cleaning/polishing them. But I cleaned up three clips using a wire bruch attachment in my Dremel tool.

But that didn't fix the problem. I guess I jumped on the "smooth clip" solution too quickly. It only works about 5-10 percent of the time, and then not correctly. I'm really determined to fix this damn problem. So far, I've replaced the following with new parts from Fulton Armory: Operating rod spring; clip latch spring; clip ejection/safety spring; magazine follower assembly (includes slider); follower arm; and bullet guide. The clip ejection spring was the toughest to change, because you have to disassemble the trigger housing group. It's easy to get apart, but hard to reassemble. I've actually tried 6 different bullet guides, counting the four that Chuck Santose sent me to try out.

Still has basically the same problem. When the clip is inserted, the clip latches, and then the bolt releases and goes forward until it contacts the top round and then stops. At this point, if you remove thumb pressure from the clip, the bolt is supposed to go forward the rest of the way, chambering the round. This is the that your M1 correctly works. Mine doesn't. At least three other guys on mailing lists have rifles that work correctly -- most don't.

I've been trying more things with the stock removed. I find that, when the thing is stuckwith the bolt against the top round and my thumb removed, the operating rod catch is completely disengaged from the oeprating rod. I can tap the bottom corner of the mag (where the clip ejection spring presses against, and the bolt/operating rod will them slam home, chambering the top round. If I pry up between the follower arm and the operating rod catch, that will also send the bolt/op rod forward. "Up" is with the action upside down.

So it's *not* a case of the mag rounds in the clip presenting too much friction for the operating rod to overcome. Something is preventing it from going forward, because when I take either of the two above actions, it just flies forward.

One other thing: when I'm looking at the action parts (stock removed, but trigger group installed) as I insert a clip, everything initially looks good. But, after the clip latches, when I remove my thumb from the top of the clip, absolutely nothing moves, not even the clip. It's at that point that the bolt will slam home if I tap on the bottom of the clip, moving it up a little like it should move by itself when thumb pressure is removed.

Tomorrow, I am ordering a follower rod, a follower arm pin, and an operating rod catch assembly (includes the accelerator) from Fulton Armory. If I change those parts and it still doesn't work, I'm sending the damn gun into Fulton Armory. Something is preventing the loaded clip from moving up a little when thumb pressure is removed. I'm beginning to think that the ghost of good old John C. is ticked off at me for some reason!! (g)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cliff:
SNIP---
I couldn't duplicate what I described last night about the bolt somehow resting behind the clip and then only stripping a round when thumb pressure was released.

Hmmm....

Reassembled the rifle and tried again. Same result. Tried a different parkerized clip. Same result. The bolt would move forward, begin to chamber a round, but the pressure of my thumb pushing down on that top round would not allow the bolt to close until I removed that pressure (thumb). When I removed my thumb, the bolt would strip the round and close like greased lightning.

Based on this, I don't believe that normal operation of the Garand has the bolt not begin to strip the round until thumb pressure is released. Quite the contrary -

Insert clip until it latches. Maintain thumb pressure on top round in clip.

When clip is latched, bolt will move forward and begin to strip the top round. The thumb on the top round exerts more pressure than the bolt can overcome and stops.

Lift thumb and rotate out of the way and bolt will close and lock.

Bob, other than what you've already tried, I can only think that you might have a weak op rod spring, the op rod spring is unlubricated, or there's some kind of a 'kink' in the op rod itself.

Your Garand doesn't have enough "oomph" to complete the loading operation and those are the most obvious causes I can think of.
[/quote]
 
Bob - Well, it appears we're all stumped. I'd appreciate it if you'd post which of those parts (if any) fixes your problem.

If you decide to send the rifle in, Orion 7 Enterprises also does excellent Garand work, usually within about a 2 week period. I've heard that Fulton Armory usually has a pretty healthy backlog because A) They do excellent work and B) They specialize in 4 different rifles.

Orion specializes in Garands, only. They also built my M1. :)

Cliff

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobRowe:


Tomorrow, I am ordering a follower rod, a follower arm pin, and an operating rod catch assembly (includes the accelerator) from Fulton Armory. If I change those parts and it still doesn't work, I'm sending the damn gun into Fulton Armory. Something is preventing the loaded clip from moving up a little when thumb pressure is removed. I'm beginning to think that the ghost of good old John C. is ticked off at me for some reason!! (g)

[/quote]
 
Same problem with my rifle. Almost seems as if the op rod is rubbing on the barrel. The rifle functions fine through the 8 rounds once loaded but requires a strong shove to load. The top round goes 1/2" into the chamber and stops. Could the en block be sitting too low in the magazine?

------------------
Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Well, yours isn't doing exactly the same thing that mine is. First, mine doesn't initially put the top round 1/2" into the chamber -- nowhere near that much movement. It only initially moves the top round about 1/16" forward in the clip -- the rim of the top round is about even with the extraction groove on the rest of the rounds. Second, it doesn't take a strong push on the operating rod handle to get it to chamber the round -- just a relatively light tap with the heel of my right hand.

I don't think that the operating rod is rubbing on the barrel. With the operating rod spring and the follower rod removed. it passes the tilt test, even with the stock attached.

There's certainly a possibility that the clip is too low, particularly since the bolt will fully close after I tap the bottom of the clip. But I don't know what is causing it. It could be something in the magazine well itself, ot it could be the action parts preventing the the clip from rising up a little after thumb pressure is removed.

I'll be changing the operating rod catch assembly (including the accelerator), the follower arm pin, and the follower rod as soon as the parts arrive from Fulton Armory. After Those are changed, that will bean that all of the action parts will be new, except for the bolt, operating rod, and clip latch.

I'll post the results after I change those parts.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
Same problem with my rifle. Almost seems as if the op rod is rubbing on the barrel. The rifle functions fine through the 8 rounds once loaded but requires a strong shove to load. The top round goes 1/2" into the chamber and stops. Could the en block be sitting too low in the magazine?

[/quote]



[This message has been edited by BobRowe (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Art Eatman:
Anyhow, Keith mentioned that when he was working with the early Garands, it was considered important to load the clip such that the top round was to the left. [/quote]


DCM oops CMP recommends loading the clip so the top round is on the right this is supposed to make it easier on the fingers not getting hurt by the clip edges. I am gonna have to try both ways just to see. For the life of me I cannot remember which way they were loaded when I was in the service. The M72 match we loaded ourselves as it came in 20 rd boxes, but we shot a lot of ball out of bandoleers that was already loaded in clips. Old age plays hell with the memory :D.


------------------
Carlyle Hebert
 
Shortly after the M1 Garand was accepted into the service, the Army dictated that all clips be loaded with the top round to the left. This was due to the reported problem feeding subsequent rounds. After it was found that some manufacturers had deviated from the drawings made by John C. Garand in order to cut corners when machining, the milling operations were corrected and the problem disappeared. Subsequent to that, clips were loaded with the top round to the right. The will load equally well from either side, but it's easier for a right handed person to press down on them if the top round is to the right. Probably easier for a left handed person, too, if he's using his right hand to preee the clip down.

Some of the ammo that I shot in the service was WW-II era ammo, and it was loaded top round to the right. Same with ammo that I shot in the 60's that was Korean War era ammo. The LC-69 surplus ammo that I purchased from CMP last year is loaded top round to the right. However, I'm pretty sure that CMP didn't load those clips -- they were still in the M2 ammo cans -- although they were not in bandoleers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Southla1:
Originally posted by Art Eatman:
Anyhow, Keith mentioned that when he was working with the early Garands, it was considered important to load the clip such that the top round was to the left.
Click to expand...


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>DCM oops CMP recommends loading the clip so the top round is on the right this is supposed to make it easier on the fingers not getting hurt by the clip edges. I am gonna have to try both ways just to see. For the life of me I cannot remember which way they were loaded when I was in the service. The M72 match we loaded ourselves as it came in 20 rd boxes, but we shot a lot of ball out of bandoleers that was already loaded in clips. Old age plays hell with the memory :D.[/quote]


[/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by BobRowe (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
Just in case anyone here wanted to buy the book that Bob was talking ("The book of the M1 Garand by Julian Hatcher") about it is avaible from the publisher for $27.96 and that includes shipping via UPS.
The phone number is (732)-545 4344
 
Well, folks, another round of disappointment. Today, I changed the operating rod catch, follower arm pin, and follower rod. The M1 still operates exactly the same: (1) When the clip is inserted to the bottom of the magazine well, the clip latch engages, the operating rod catch disengages, and the bolt starts forward. (2) The bolt contacts the base of the top round in the magazine and moves it forward about 1/16-inch. (3) When thumb pressure is removed from the top of the clip, absolutely nothing happens. (4) the bolt can be made to continue forward and chamber the top round by either tapping the operating rod handle with the heel of the hand, or by pulling the operating rod handle fully to the rear and releasing it--this second choice sometimes needs to be repeated a couple of times.

I have replaced the following parts with new parts obtained from Fulton Armory:

Follower and slide assembly
Follower arm
Follower arm pin
Bullet guide
Operating rod catch
Follower rod
Operating rod spring
Clip latch spring
Clip ejection/safety spring

Tomorrow morning, I am going to call Fulton Armory and discuss sending the rifle to them for determination of the problem.

--Bob
 
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