Lusting after an H&K
- Thread starter Prof Young
- Start date
Most will. Not sure what bearing that has on this thread whatsoever.
I own and enjoy 1911s and most have good triggers and shoot well. That said, I have shot some 1911s with pretty bad triggers. The SA trigger of a standard Variant 1 USP is pretty decent, and you can expect it to be consistent from gun to gun. Your accuracy with the gun is a matter of training, and for most folks, a USP will require more training to squeeze out the accuracy it is capable of.
I wouldn’t carry either. Both are too large and heavy for my preferences. But for other defensive uses (i.e. home defense) there is no question I would choose a USP over any 1911 at any price point. You have almost twice the capacity on board a pistol that is practically accurate for defensive use, is going to be a safer option in stressful situations, and is going to be utterly reliable.
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I think I get it, you don't like HK right? Cool. Once was enough to convey that.
I got to shoot a P-30, I loved it (granted that is not a USP) - the grip was to die for, perfect (it did have changeable grips though I used the one that was on it and loved it)
And no fun to shoot? Really? Anything that goes bang is fun to shoot. I mean really.
The H&K Hostile Environment Finish, S&W Melonite/Armornite, and Glock's old Tennifer Finish are all a form of Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, a case hardening treatment which alters the surface of the steel at the molecular level increasing the surface hardness and corrosion resistance. However, it's not very photogenic, coming out as a dull gray, sometimes with mottled spots, so most manufacturers add some sort of top coat over it, and that's what wears off, just a coating placed over the FNC Treatment for purely aesthetic reasons.
If it bothers you, then I would say have it Cerakoted or something.
As for fit and finish, once again, I only have the Elite model to speak of, but mine is without a doubt the smoothest, most well machined pistol that I own. Yes, it's an Elite model, but that's the thing... The USP is generally already so darn expensive, that you might as well add a couple hundred bucks and get the Expert or Elite model.
Heck, sometimes the Expert and Elite models are actually cheaper than the Standard model. I was actually looking at prices online, and kept seeing Elites prices at equal or lower prices than the Standard. So unless you're buying a USP for Concealed Carry, it just makes more sense to get one of the enhanced models since they don't cost much more yet apparently have infinitely better fit/finish/function.
I have owned a number of USPs. I never found them to be lacking in fit and finish. It’s certainly possible and even likely the Expert and Elite are even better, but in the realm of production pistols they’ve met my expectations. It is true the finish isn’t particularly resistant to abrasion. I don’t find the stock triggers to be excellent, but I don’t find them terrible either. In fairness I find I’m not as bothered by triggers as others.
The price quoted here by the OP seems high for a standard USP. I would not pay that price. Moreso, if you want to dabble in HK pistols, buy a used one. They hold up well and in my experience many of the owners take good care of them.
Lastly, with regards to S&W and HK. I have owned probably a dozen or so handguns from each manufacturer. In my experience HK has notably better quality control than S&W. I really like S&W products, but I have had to send multiple pistols back to the factory and fixed others on my own that shouldn’t have left the factory as they did. S&W, to their credit, always took them in immediately, paid shipping both ways, and had the pistols back in about a month.
Of the HKs I owned I had two pistols that issues. One USP Compact had a false reset due to an out of spec trigger return spring. HK would have fixed it had I paid shipping and offered a match trigger install (absent the over travel screw) at a reduced price to appease me. The other HK pistol that was problematic was an HK P30 with a recoil spring that was likely on the edge of being out of spec as it had issues with ejection (I owned two other P30s that did not have the same issue). That lead to the worst customer service experience I have ever had where the person on the phone just gave me the silent treatment until I hung up. It was beyond bizarre (in fairness maybe he had having a bad day). The rest I owned ran like sewing machines from day one. If I had to pick a company that likely is the most likely to be good out of box, I would probably choose HK.
So in my sampling HK has better quality control and S&W has better customer service. Both make products I like.
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The price quoted here by the OP seems high for a standard USP. I would not pay that price. Moreso, if you want to dabble in HK pistols, buy a used one. They hold up well and in my experience many of the owners take good care of them.
Lastly, with regards to S&W and HK. I have owned probably a dozen or so handguns from each manufacturer. In my experience HK has notably better quality control than S&W. I really like S&W products, but I have had to send multiple pistols back to the factory and fixed others on my own that shouldn’t have left the factory as they did. S&W, to their credit, always took them in immediately, paid shipping both ways, and had the pistols back in about a month.
Of the HKs I owned I had two pistols that issues. One USP Compact had a false reset due to an out of spec trigger return spring. HK would have fixed it had I paid shipping and offered a match trigger install (absent the over travel screw) at a reduced price to appease me. The other HK pistol that was problematic was an HK P30 with a recoil spring that was likely on the edge of being out of spec as it had issues with ejection (I owned two other P30s that did not have the same issue). That lead to the worst customer service experience I have ever had where the person on the phone just gave me the silent treatment until I hung up. It was beyond bizarre (in fairness maybe he had having a bad day). The rest I owned ran like sewing machines from day one. If I had to pick a company that likely is the most likely to be good out of box, I would probably choose HK.
So in my sampling HK has better quality control and S&W has better customer service. Both make products I like.
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If you shoot enough or have owned enough guns you will run into some kind of issue with ALL the manufacturers. I have a USP .45 issue I am running down as we speak.
What’s funny is I am not what you would call an HK fan boy so to speak but they are my favorite guns overall for my defensive purposes, that said if you told me I had to pull a semi auto out of the box today and use it for any kind of defensive/dangerous need I would probably want a Glock 17 as my experience has been of ALL the guns I have owned Glock has most consistently through all the years seemed to do the best QC job overall especially with the 9mms. Now truth be told that might be easier when you have made the same damn gun since Washington crossed the Delaware
but that is just my experience.
SIG, Beretta, Walther, Smith, HK etc. have all been through periods of poor QC or CS where Glock has been fairly consistent. (Yes Glock has had some issues over the years of course but they seem to be more consistent then the rest). I am not throwing dispersions at those or any company just pointing out the ups and downs. I have and LOVE products from all of them.
CZ seems to have been fairly consistent as well. They put out a lot of stuff at points that had …… well drunken monkey with a dremel internal finishing
but they always ran and shot great and their finishing has only gotten better.
Ohh and for the OP although I am having an issue with my USP .45 I friggin love the gun and I am confident my issue will be worked out.
What’s funny is I am not what you would call an HK fan boy so to speak but they are my favorite guns overall for my defensive purposes, that said if you told me I had to pull a semi auto out of the box today and use it for any kind of defensive/dangerous need I would probably want a Glock 17 as my experience has been of ALL the guns I have owned Glock has most consistently through all the years seemed to do the best QC job overall especially with the 9mms. Now truth be told that might be easier when you have made the same damn gun since Washington crossed the Delaware
but that is just my experience. SIG, Beretta, Walther, Smith, HK etc. have all been through periods of poor QC or CS where Glock has been fairly consistent. (Yes Glock has had some issues over the years of course but they seem to be more consistent then the rest). I am not throwing dispersions at those or any company just pointing out the ups and downs. I have and LOVE products from all of them.
CZ seems to have been fairly consistent as well. They put out a lot of stuff at points that had …… well drunken monkey with a dremel internal finishing
but they always ran and shot great and their finishing has only gotten better.Ohh and for the OP although I am having an issue with my USP .45 I friggin love the gun and I am confident my issue will be worked out.
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@TunnelRat
H&K's Customer Service is infamous for having Representatives who are unfriendly, unhelpful, arrogant, condescending, short-tempered, and rude. There's actually an internet meme about H&K's Customer Service is that their slogan is; "Because you suck and we hate you." due to the way that they treat their civilian customers when they call with problems or ask any questions.
You can read no end of comments online who have dealt with their Customer Service, which is why it is often considered to be the worst in the industry among mainstream firearms manufacturers. Seriously, even Taurus is generally considered to have better Customer Service, because while they take a long time, make mistakes, and are generally ignorant of their own products, at least they don't try to pass the buck onto the end user when someone calls with an issue or sends a firearm in for repairs.
H&K's Customer Service is infamous for having Representatives who are unfriendly, unhelpful, arrogant, condescending, short-tempered, and rude. There's actually an internet meme about H&K's Customer Service is that their slogan is; "Because you suck and we hate you." due to the way that they treat their civilian customers when they call with problems or ask any questions.
You can read no end of comments online who have dealt with their Customer Service, which is why it is often considered to be the worst in the industry among mainstream firearms manufacturers. Seriously, even Taurus is generally considered to have better Customer Service, because while they take a long time, make mistakes, and are generally ignorant of their own products, at least they don't try to pass the buck onto the end user when someone calls with an issue or sends a firearm in for repairs.
I’m familiar with the slogan, and was even at the time. This event happened when I was drinking the HK Kool-Aid very heavily and spent a lot of time over on the HKPro forums. I thought the bad reputation was an exaggeration that didn’t apply to “true fans” like me. In a way it was a good experience for me. It knocked a good amount of the fanboy behavior out of me and made me realize the value of good customer service.
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I have actually seen spectacular HK service when needed / or when just inquiring. I feel like they ABSOLUTELY were The You Suck and We Hate you company for a long time but I feel like they turned that around pretty aggressively around in the 2010-2015 timeframe.
I hate to say it but again Glock always seemed to have good CS. I am not a Glock fan boy but I really respect their product and service.
SIG seems to vacillate between AWESOME and Poop show service depending on who you get or when you get them.
I hate to say it but again Glock always seemed to have good CS. I am not a Glock fan boy but I really respect their product and service.
SIG seems to vacillate between AWESOME and Poop show service depending on who you get or when you get them.
The timeframe you mention is when I had my experience.
I’ve had good luck with Glock, but I have only used them rarely.
I have had much better luck with SIG in recent years. Back around ~2010 I had some horrible experiences with them. The last few times I’ve used them (say 2018 onward) they’ve been quite good.
All of this is hard to judge one customer service rep at a time.
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I’ve had good luck with Glock, but I have only used them rarely.
I have had much better luck with SIG in recent years. Back around ~2010 I had some horrible experiences with them. The last few times I’ve used them (say 2018 onward) they’ve been quite good.
All of this is hard to judge one customer service rep at a time.
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cslinger said:
I think most manufacturers generally make good products, but I've still had better luck with some either quality control wise or customer service wise. My point was more it's hard to figure in where one person's experience fits in the grand scheme of the sheer quantity of firearms that are put out these days. At the same time, people generally don't ignore their own experiences. Negative experiences generally hang around in our consciousness even more than positive ones, and this is very evident in online reviews I read. I think companies are realizing that in an age where it's so easy to share negative experiences, ensuring good experiences is important, even if it's often difficult.
My wife and I were talking about this today.
When I look at reviews for any product I look for patterns. If you run into few torqued off folks with disparate thoughts that worries me far less then when I find several folks all complaining about the same issue and those usually have some credence behind them.
Not to sway super far off the OPs topic and to bring it back around, by in large I have found HKs to be superlative products. Yes they have shi……errrr combat triggers but nothing that cannot be overcome but they are extremely good very well tested guns. Don’t go into them buying into the HK hype/or snobbery or you will likely be let down, but If you go in looking for an excellent “combat” handgun I think you will be happy.
When I look at reviews for any product I look for patterns. If you run into few torqued off folks with disparate thoughts that worries me far less then when I find several folks all complaining about the same issue and those usually have some credence behind them.
Not to sway super far off the OPs topic and to bring it back around, by in large I have found HKs to be superlative products. Yes they have shi……errrr combat triggers
but nothing that cannot be overcome but they are extremely good very well tested guns. Don’t go into them buying into the HK hype/or snobbery or you will likely be let down, but If you go in looking for an excellent “combat” handgun I think you will be happy.Skarekrow88
New member
My first pistol when I turned 21 was an HK USP 45 manufactured in 2009. The guys at the gun store tried to talk me into an HK45 but I just didn’t love it and I don’t regret my decision. Recoil is very mild for .45 auto due to the recoil spring design. I thought briefly about trading it for an FNX45 but a friend talked me out of it citing that I would likely find the USP to be softer/better shooting.
Only complaint I have, which isn’t the pistols fault, is the garbage magazine springs. I don’t know if I was just unlucky or if it was my fault for leaving the magazines loaded for years but the springs lost their power, especially so in one of the three magazines it shipped with. Wouldn’t lock the pistol open on the last round and caused rounds to nose-dive into the feed ramp. The other two got noticeably weaker but still seemed to function well enough. I just spent $20 and ordered a set of three Wolff +10% power mag springs and decided to stop leaving my magazines loaded which solved the issue so it was an easy fix.
I’ve read somewhere that the metal used by HK to make magazine springs is not the best quality, or at least it wasn’t at one point. Not sure of the validity of that claim though.
Only complaint I have, which isn’t the pistols fault, is the garbage magazine springs. I don’t know if I was just unlucky or if it was my fault for leaving the magazines loaded for years but the springs lost their power, especially so in one of the three magazines it shipped with. Wouldn’t lock the pistol open on the last round and caused rounds to nose-dive into the feed ramp. The other two got noticeably weaker but still seemed to function well enough. I just spent $20 and ordered a set of three Wolff +10% power mag springs and decided to stop leaving my magazines loaded which solved the issue so it was an easy fix.
I’ve read somewhere that the metal used by HK to make magazine springs is not the best quality, or at least it wasn’t at one point. Not sure of the validity of that claim though.
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Glad you solved your problem. BTW, magazine springs are not weakened by compression. They are weakened by compression, decompression cycles.
Every magazine I've tested so far shows that the spring is weakened by leaving it fully compressed (leaving the mag fully loaded).
So far I haven't tested one where the spring weakened so much that it would no longer function (although it is possible to find anecdotal evidence that such a thing can happen--as the post two up from this one), but they all weakened measurably.
This is my experience as well.
Over the years here I’ve seen the claim that spring compression alone does not weaken a spring but rather compression and release. While I can see how that would weaken a spring more, I have had a number of cases personally where compression alone weakened a spring.
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Skarekrow88
New member
"Magazine springs are not weakened by compression" is a bit of an absolutist statement if you ask me.
While I do acknowledge that compression and decompression cycles weaken springs much more substantially than just leaving them compressed, I have found in my experience that leaving certain magazine springs compressed does in fact weaken them to some degree. My HK USP magazines being the most effected by being left fully loaded of all my other pistols. My theory is that the metallurgy or heat treatment of the USP springs I had were sub-par. I have many other magazine for other guns that I have left loaded for just as long if not longer and they dont seem to be weakened anywhere near as much as my USP magazines were.
I watched a video by Paul Harrell where either he, or a friend, bought a Browning A5 or similar type shotgun that had been left in a closet for a multitude of years with the bolt locked open. When they went to test fire the gun it had consistent failure-to-feed problems due to the recoil spring being weakened from being compressed for that length of time. The issue was remedied by replacing the recoil spring if I remember correctly.
I wouldn't say that it is universal but I am of the opinion that its certainly possible/plausible that leaving some springs (depending on their quality) compressed can weaken them albeit not as much as a high amount of compression/decompression cycles will.
I had a stainless USP .40 years ago, and I didn't keep it too long. We had to use DAO triggers, and the trigger in that pistol sent me somewhere else. I later had P2000 .40 with the DAO, but for some reason, back on 2001 or so when I got it, I don't remember it being referred to as the LEM like I've seen it now. Now THAT was a nice trigger for DAO!
I got a VP9 years later, and I was really happy with that trigger. I only got rid of that gun because I never used it. I got it after I had retired from LEO, but since I'm back, I would love to have that or the P2000 again. Both were my favorite duty weapons, and I've carried 10 so far.
I got a VP9 years later, and I was really happy with that trigger. I only got rid of that gun because I never used it. I got it after I had retired from LEO, but since I'm back, I would love to have that or the P2000 again. Both were my favorite duty weapons, and I've carried 10 so far.