LTC in MASS... and legality question.

M

MidKnight

New member
I'm a MA resident (for 3 years now) and have taken the needed safety course and applied for my class-a ltc. Two days ago I was called by the police dept. and was told that I was granted a Class-A (hard to do in Quincy) with the hunting and targeting restrictions. However, before I can pick up my license, I had to have proof that I was/will be a member of a local gun club.

Now, I will be a member of one, when I can get the extra dough together (135 bucks, not easy for a young guy still in school), so I don't have a problem with that... but can they MANDATE that you MUST spend your own hard earned money on something that they don't run in order for you to have your license that they have already granted you?

Now, I'm going to try to get somebody at a local club to sign something saying I will be a member, and do this right, but I'm upset at the whole thing.

Thoughts? Opinions?

BTW, new to the forum, and it's great!!
 
Yes and NO!

"...can they MANDATE that you MUST spend your own hard earned money on something that they don't run in order for you to have your license that they have already granted you?"

Legally, NO. It has already been argued in court and the Randolph (IIRC) police LOST. There is NO requirement that an applicant or licensee belong to a club.

Note also that if you accept the license, you accept the restriction. IF this is your first license, you might as well accept it. IF you already have a license or FID card, you might have a shot at challenging the restriction, especially given Quincy's reputation for arbitrary and capricious actions.

Note that the Quincy District Court is not particularly hospitable to those who think the Second Amendment is as important as the others.
 
Yup, first time for the license, and because I didn't intend on carrying too much anyways, I was going to accept the restrictions. However, I was very upset about the requirement to be in a gun club.

But, does this boil down to the fact that if I wanted to dispute the requirement, that I'd have to go to court? Don't have the cash to do all of that. I'd like to be able to call the department and just say 'there's no legal reason for you to require a club membership and I'd like to take my license now'. Doesn't sound like that'll happen.

Thanks for the response and I would apprecaite anymore thoughts on the subject!
 
First of all, congratulations

Getting a Class A in Quincy is reportedly almost impossible. Having said that, if I were you I would take it and run. The local police chiefs in this state are virtually independent on this issue and can do and require anything they want.
If you do decided to pursue it goal.org has some legal contacts. There are two or three attorneys here that specialize in second amendment. Good luck!
 
Learn how to fight effectively

"I'd like to be able to call the department and just say 'there's no legal reason for you to require a club membership and I'd like to take my license now'."

Phone calls are crap. Period.

Can you prove you made the call? Who you spoke to? What was said? NO.

You need to cite the case law in a letter - as in, WRITING - and send it by Certified Mail, Return Receipt. That is, IF you have the stones to challenge the chief.

If not, take what he deigns to give you and run.
 
Here's the deal after talking to the Gun Owners Action League (GOAL) of MA. They told me that because MA is the state that it is, Quincy PD can force me to get a membership before granting me my LTC. Fine. So, I called the PD and asked if there was a procedure to get a variance. They said that the only way was to talk directly to the chief, who is not in until tuesday.

So, outcome is this: Tuesday I'll call and see if he wants to meet face to face or if he can interview me over the phone and pass the word on down the chain to the people that hand out the LTCs. I'd really like to talk face to face, it's easier for me to put my best foot forward in person.

I'll keep you posted.
 
You spoke to someone at GOAL -

on a holiday weekend - who told you "that because MA is the state that it is, Quincy PD can force me to get a membership before granting me my LTC."?
Excuse me while I seriously question the veracity of that assertion. I don't believe Jim, Jon or Nancy would have said that.


What is far more likely is that you were told - again - that:

1. There is no statutory requirement for membership in a club;

2. Case law holds the police cannot require you to join a club; BUT

You would have to go to court to get Quincy to obey the law, as the decision to issue an LTC lies solely with the chief and his discretionary power.


Once again, the police cannot "force [you] to get a membership." The chief CAN decide you are not "suitable" if you don't belong and you can drag his abusive butt into court to disabuse him of his fantasy - IF you've got the gonads and available green paper.....


Of course, had you contacted - better yet, joined - GOAL three years ago, you'd know that. You'd also have known about Quincy before moving there. :rolleyes:
 
Alright, bad wording perhaps.

on a holiday weekend - who told you "that because MA is the state that it is, Quincy PD can force me to get a membership before granting me my LTC."?
Click to expand...

I'll give you the gentlemans name if you care to know. He also sent me an email of encouragement on the suject.

On FRIDAY I contacted GOAL (about 10am) and the gentleman on the other end of the line said that due to suitability requirements the cheif could deny my LTC if I was not a member of a club (saying if I wasn't a member of a local club I wasn't suitable to possess a Class-A LTC), thereby forcing me to join a club if I desired the Class-A LTC. Semantics.

Of course, had you contacted - better yet, joined - GOAL three years ago, you'd know that.
Click to expand...

I haven't had the spare scratch to pay the 100 bills for the license up until now (still in school and making my way as a draftsman), let alone the extra money to join GOAL. And as I informed the exceptionally helpfull person I talked to at GOAL, they are now another member stronger (along with my NRA membership). Also, just joining GOAL doesn't give one knowledge, you have to seek it out, which I did.

You'd also have known about Quincy before moving there.
Click to expand...

Also, I don't choose the town in a state that I lived based on how iron-fisted the cheif of police is about LTCs.

EDIT: i don't have the money to fight the issue in court. It'd be a whole lot cheaper to just buy a membership to a club.
 
Why bullies win:

"Also, I don't choose the town in a state that I lived based on how iron-fisted the cheif [sic] of police is about LTCs."

Obviously. Hence your predicament....

"EDIT: i don't have the money to fight the issue in court. It'd be a whole lot cheaper to just buy a membership to a club."

What you tolerate, you validate; what you put up with - YOU DESERVE! :eek:
 
Obviously. Hence your predicament....
Click to expand...

Well... yeah. I'll live with that.

What you tolerate, you validate; what you put up with - YOU DESERVE!
Click to expand...

I missed the part where I tolerated this requirement. Didn't I call knowledgable people in the area to find out my options? Aren't I pursuing them as we speak? I can not take a course of action that is outside of my financial means. So, I didn't lay down and take this... I am taking every action that is feasible. When all of those fail, then I'll have to submit if it comes to that.

You appear to be upset with the way I'm handling my situation... perhaps you could tell me what my options are? Court NOT being one of them. I'm not making much money, and I'm recently engaged. I can not afford a lawyer.

You seem to care a lot about the local issues surrounding gun ownership, and that I commend. So please, let me know where I've gone astray in my actions.
 
This, for one:

"I missed the part where I tolerated this requirement."

Try this:

"It'd be a whole lot cheaper to just buy a membership to a club."

And this:

"Now, I'm going to try to get somebody at a local club to sign something saying I will be a member, and do this right..."

Next issue.

"perhaps you could tell me what my options are? ... So please, let me know where I've gone astray in my actions."

I did - clearly and specifically:

You need to cite the case law in a letter - as in, WRITING - and send it by Certified Mail, Return Receipt. That is, IF you have the stones to challenge the chief.

If not, roll over and take the restriction.
 
The story goes on...

6,

Thanks for the PM, you also have one. Hopefully the case cited will come in handy because:

I just got off the phone with Chief Crowley who informed me that he would NOT issue me an LTC if I was not a member of a gun club. No uncertain terms. Which, according to past case law (thanks 6) is illegal.

Now it's time to see where we can go from here. I have to decide if it's worth the ensuing battle to challenge him or just wait till I get the membership this summer, after some money frees up. I would imagine that the fight would extend past the time when I get my membership, rendering the arguement moot.
 
Not to say I told you so -

but I did. Phone calls are a waste of time, as yours proved to be.

Put it in writing. It makes for a great exhibit when you appeal.

You might also send a copy to the Board of Selectmen which, I'm told, is rapidly becoming disgusted with Crowley's arrogance and abuse.

Or roll over. :barf:

Regarding what you were actually told by GOAL, my source there indicates that my interpretation of what was really said is the more likely scenario.
 
Why not use the new board of appeals??

I am glad I got my AllLawful Purposes before Crowley was put in place. They gave my wife a target and hunting, we moved to Abington, and when she renewed she got an All Lawful Purposes.
 
I'm new to Quincy and fairly young. I'm not familiar with the way that MA or Quincy is run.

Could you please let me know exactly how to go to the board of appeals and what would be involved.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks for the patience... never done any of this before!
 
Misinformed

"Could you please let me know exactly how to go to the board of appeals and what would be involved."

Specialist is misinformed. The Firearms License Review Board's jurisdiction is over those license denials which are due to certain statutory disqualifiers. As you have no such disqualifiers and are being issued a license, there is nothing to appeal to the FLRB.
 
Update:

Contrary to what I was told on the phone, apparently I've been denied my LTC. Just got the letter in the mail today.

They called and told me all I had to do was to show that I was going to be a member of a gun club and I'd get my LTC. Then, a week or two later they mail me saying that I'm denied.

Maybe my talking to the chief of police had something to do with this, because the letter is dated yesterday.

Now I do need to know how to make an appeal, so specialist, how do I go about doing just that??
 
That is too bad

try going to
northeastshooters.com

they have a lot of geographic information and contacts for local attorneys who deal with these things..i know you don't have much $, but that may be the only way at this point. Good luck. It's hard to believe that this state was the origin of the American Revolution
 
Sorry folks but, I'm not from MA. What is a Class-A licence?
Do you need a licence to own a gun in MA or just to carry it?
 
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