low velocity wad cutters in 38 spcl

[QUOTE='Kluee-Less in Kalifornina' ]The FBI learned this one for the hard way. Those Agents were good men. One way to honor them is to learn from their mistakes; not mimic their mistakes. Remember, the Agents had, Caliber, Speed, and Bullet Placement in the begining no less.[/QUOTE]

Please enlighten us on what they learned about the hardness of the lead used in the bullet. I'd love to hear it.
 
Please enlighten us
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I'm not sure whom the, 'us', refers to in your case. But I will give it one try for you.

Early, in the worst shoot-out the FBI ever had, an Agent shot a Creep in the ribcage with a 9mm from a short distance. The bullet, while on the correct target path and with sufficient velocity, deformed and stopped before the bullet traveled thru to the Creep's vitals. Said Creep continued his attack despite soaking-up his new less than lethal gunshot wound to his chest.

The official FBI shooting review concluded that had 9mm been loaded with a bullet capable of decent penetration the Creep most likely would not have had the energy to kill, and injure, multiple Agents, shortly after the intial hit.

Reflecting on the tone from your request for this 25 year old open-source information, I am certain that others, whom may know more about the Dade County Shooting than me, will gladly fill in the details if you so desire.
 
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not sure whom the, 'us', refers to in your case. But I will give it one try for you.

Early, in the worst shoot-out the FBI ever had, an Agent shot a Creep in the ribcage with a 9mm from a short distance. The bullet, while on the correct target path and with sufficient velocity, deformed and stopped before the bullet traveled thru to the Creep's vitals. Said Creep continued his attack despite soaking-up his new less than lethal gunshot wound to his chest.

The official FBI shooting review concluded that had 9mm been loaded with a bullet capable of decent penetration the Creep most likely would not have had the energy to kill, and injure, multiple Agents, shortly after the intial hit.

Reflecting on the tone from your request for this 25 year old open-source information, I am certain that others, whom may know more about the Dade County Shooting than me, will gladly fill in the details if you so desire.
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That means absoutely nothing. A single bullet situation proves NOTHING. People have been hit with all kinds of great preforming bullets that did not live up to the expectations. The difference between a solid hardcast and a solid softer bullet is marginal.

As for your last comment, I know all about the shooting. I simply couldnt believe that anyone would translate that to a solid bullet at 18bhn(hardcast) would be any better than one at 8bhn. Hardcast vs softer lead isnt that kind of issue. Better load is the issue.

By your standard everyone carrying a 9mm better not carry HP ammo, there is a chance it would expand and not penetrate deep enough.
 
Keep in mind that most of the better reports on full wadcutter .38 specials involve bullets traveling around 800 fps and not the 600 fps the OP preferred. The late Stephen Camp firmly believed that the light target wadcutters were not the defensive round some believed they were -- http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Feedingthe38Snub.htm. Now, if you do get a full wadcutter traveling at 800 fps (especially harder lead), then you've got a decent defense load. Of course, to accomplish that would probably cause more recoil than the Speer 135 gr. Gold Dots for short barreled guns which is about the best load for a .38 snubby IMO.
 
That means absoutely nothing. A single bullet situation proves NOTHING. People have been hit with all kinds of great preforming bullets that did not live up to the expectations. The difference between a solid hardcast and a solid softer bullet is marginal.
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Maybe you should explain that to the victim's families, the Medical professionals, the Firearms Examiners et al. You might be on to a real break-thru in the study of Terminal Ballistics. Later.
 
Hello KyJim

After you deliver 800 fps of 158 grain hardcast lead payload to the intended target, Penetration Disappointment probably will not be a topic of too much concern.
 
Maybe you should explain that to the victim's families, the Medical professionals, the Firearms Examiners et al. You might be on to a real break-thru in the study of Terminal Ballistics. Later.
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Again hard vs. soft is a matter of technicalities. A "soft" lead bullet is still in fact pretty darned hard. Swaged pure lead SWCs will penetrate just fine.

You also know damned good and well what I meant so using the phrase "explain that to the families" makes you look foolish. Thats about as asinine as the anti-gunners that say that when screaming for an AWB.

Learn more about bullets and you may get somewhere. The hardness of the bullet isnt the issue. Its the load involved. If there isnt enough power to push an expanding bullet through tissue then its not a good load. Any underpowered load with an expanding bullet will either not expand or expand and not penetrate enough.

I gotta go, I dropped some soft lead bullets on the floor and they flattened out like pancakes and got stuck in the carpet, dont want my wife to find them. Anyone know what gets soft flattened out lead of carpet?:D
 
But on topic my buddy shot some .38 special WCs he backwards loaded out of a 6" python....lord did they make a mess of anything they hit, and only felt like shooting a .22 mag or .25 auto.
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If you load a swaged lead WC backwards, the skirt separates giving two projectiles tumbling through the air. Poor accuracy and poor terminal effect is what you will get.
 
WCs

loaded HBWCs either in .44 special or .45 Colt.
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I have never seen a HBWC bullet in .429 or .452/.454. Source? Mold # and manufacturer?
Saeco makes a mold for a 200 gr. FBWC for the .44s and a 225 grainer for the .45, that I know. RCBS makes a RNHB mold for the .45s
Pete
 
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Ever since I worked a shooting where a guy got an entire load of 00 buck in the chest and ran cursing for 100 yards until expiring my faith in ANY handgun round has been kinda suspect :)
 
Thanks

Jib: Thanks for that link to the HBWCs. I ordered a few in .452. I had never seen them before. I wonder whose mold it is?
Pete
 
Ever since I worked a shooting where a guy got an entire load of 00 buck in the chest and ran cursing for 100 yards until expiring my faith in ANY handgun round has been kinda suspect
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What was the load ( full power or reduced recoil)? What was the distance? I ask because all 00 buck is not created equal. Even 00 loses effect at more that 15-20 yards, remember each projectile counts as its own, so each is a 32 cal lead ball.
 
At low velocity I'd say a lead or jacketed round nosed bullet is best. You need to puncture internals and cause lots of bleeding.

Aim for the heart, neck and face and it should do the job.
 
Nanuk:

cast bullet..... I shot some, dime sized groups at 7 yards (common PD range) out of a 6" python... gruesome effect on target.
 
If you load a swaged lead WC backwards, the skirt separates giving two projectiles tumbling through the air. Poor accuracy and poor terminal effect is what you will get.
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Really? Do you have any proof of that? I have loaded and a couple hundred HBWC bullets backwards and shot them into mud, putty and water bottles and never had a single bullet fragment or seperate. They were not very accurate and more likely than not the skirt would mash flat and not expand at all. I would never depend on them for SD load.

In theory if you load a HBWC with too hot of a charge the base could seperate from the solid part of the bullet. Thats with the bullet loaded point first. I have loaded up to 4.5grs of bullseye to see if I could get it to seperate but it never happened.
 
Really? Do you have any proof of that? I have loaded and a couple hundred HBWC bullets backwards and shot them into mud, putty and water bottles and never had a single bullet fragment or seperate. They were not very accurate and more likely than not the skirt would mash flat and not expand at all. I would never depend on them for SD load.

In theory if you load a HBWC with too hot of a charge the base could seperate from the solid part of the bullet. Thats with the bullet loaded point first. I have loaded up to 4.5grs of bullseye to see if I could get it to seperate but it never happened.
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Proof? I did it in 1982. the same old story was around even before the internet! So after I got out of the Army my dad and I decided to try it. Loaded up some Speer swaged lead HBWC backwards, looked mean.... At 25 yards for each shot fired there were 2 holes in the target, one was clearly the main part key-holing. Same results at 15 yards.

Thats all the "Proof" I have. It is the same as the "WC is the ultimate secret for SD" . this crap resurrects itself every few years. There are all kinds of gimmick rounds out there, me I want a bullets that goes where I want it to at any reasonable distance and penetrates deep - every-time. And no I am not going to produce a you-tube video, and I don't have any sworn depositions.

You want to load a round that is an urban legend into your gun to protect yourself when rounds with 2 to 3 times the energy have failed to stop attacks, have fun.
 
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cast bullet..... I shot some, dime sized groups at 7 yards (common PD range) out of a 6" python... gruesome effect on target.
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The same load from you 6" python vs a 2" snubbie is about 200-250 FPS difference. Like night and day at those velocities. I had good results with My Marlin and wadcutters on skunks, but you had to load 1 at a time because the gun did not feed them.
 
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