Low velocity 45-70 sans Trail Boss

R

redhawk41

New member
Since Trail Boss seems to be going the way of the dodo, and 14gr under a 300gr cast at ~1200fps is such a fun load, what are you all suggestions for substitutes?

Thanks!
 
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QuickLOAD thinks about 11 grains of Tightgroup would give the same pressure and velocity, and it is supposed to be position insensitive, which, at only about 26% loading density, it would need to be, in this instance. 11 grains of Unique will be a little bulkier and gives the same velocity, but the peak pressure is about a third lower.
 
I tried TB in revolver loads for 44 mag and 357. I didn't like it at all. See if you can find some loads with Unique or maybe 800X which is a medium speed very large flake shotgun powder that works good in cast revolver loads. It doesn't Meter all that well but usually well enough for good cast handgun loads. 4198 is also a standard in straight walled pistol cases including 454 casull but it may not give you the slow loads you want . 4227 is a small stick powder that may also have some data out there. Those powders are all faster than 4895 and may tolerate down loading more than the real slow rifle powders which might hang fire or squib at low pressures. There is also another discontinued IMR powder that is for reduced rifle loads called SR4759 to look for at gun shows. Unique is one of those powders that has loads for more cartridges than any other powder.
 
I use a lot of Herco in place of Unique especially in 45 Colt. About a half a grain or so more equals Unique. Have used both Unique and Herco in my trapdoor both worked well but H4198 worked better. Mostly use black powder in it now.
 
For a long time my favorite "plinker" .45-70 was a 385-400gr slug over Unique.

The charge was the same as I used in my .45 Colt rounds and no filler was used. I always made it a point to elevate the muzzle then lower it down to shoot, never had any issues doing it that way.

Rifle was a Ruger No.3 and that load was "on" with the iron sights at 190yds. Can't tell you the speed, never clocked it, only that it was slow, one literally could lift your head up and watch the bullet impact a second or two later, at longer ranges.

Eventually I stopped loading that, and just settled on the Lyman "factory equivalent" load of IMR 3031 as my "low end" GP load. ITs a bit "hotter" than the Unique load, but its not enough to bother me, or my shooting.
 
I found Universal to be better for higher pressure auto pistol rounds like 9mm and Unique to do better with cast bullet loads like in 44 mag but my use of these powders was not exhaustive. I didn't find Universal to burn as clean as 231 in 45 acp where the faster clays works great with cast bullets. I'd love to hear how Unique and Universal perform head to head in the same exact cast applications.
 
Incidentally, when I ran the loads in QL for post #2, 11 grains of Unique or Universal produced just about exactly the same velocity as 11 grains of Tightgroup from a 24" barrel (the SAAMI standard test barrel length for the 45-70). The difference is that the Unique pressure is about a third lower than the Trail Boss and Tightgroup loads, which come close (about 18,000 psi vs about 12,000 psi for Unique), while Universal is in between at about 14,500 psi. Whether you can feel the difference or not is unknown. QL is often on the low side of actual pressures when the velocity is a match, so if lower pressure is appealing, then for the Unique or Universal loads.
 
redhawk41 said:
One reason I’m hesitant to try Tightgroup is the seemingly higher pressure spikes and the lower load density.
Click to expand...
In pistol loading I’ve loaded and shot about 10,000 rounds or more using it in 9mm, .38sp, and .357mag. It gives great accuracy in both pistols and PCC’s. But, it’s also the only powder I’ve had an oops with costing me my all time favorite.357 due to an overload. I still use it in a very limited capacity for my CC loads in 9mm but only under very stringent procedures and limited use. Shooting 125gr Copper clad truncated cone bullets in my BigBoy Steel with.38sp open sights at 50yds sub 3” groups are the norm. I don’t load these anymore due to my previous issues but I mention this to illustrate the potential in a long barrel rifle even though it is a fast high density powder.
 
Why Trail Boss was such a great powder: fast and voluminous.

I guess the real question here is what is the bulkiest fast pistol powder with load data for low velocity 45-70?
 
I would guess beyond Trail Boss, there exists no fast pistol powder that we might call "bulky" and Red Dot (or Promo) might be the closest.

I will add my vote for Titegroup in this role, with strong caveats.

I believe that Titegroup is not the best powder for a novice or anyone that isn't extremely precise in their methods and checks & balances. It's my opinion that no available powder out there is better suited to blowing up guns than is Titegroup. Extremely dense, high energy and high temp.

I also think that Titegroup is a horrendous choice for many revolver applications if your typical handling of a revolver means wrapping fingers around the cylinder as I do because Titegroup makes guns HOT HOT HOT to the touch.

Those are the negatives. It sounds like I hate this powder and I rail against it. That's not the entire truth. I have never found a better powder when it comes to it's resistance to position sensitivity and I have found a HUGE sensitivity to position for almost any/every powder I have ever used when the combustion space is huge and the powder charge is small and doesn't take up much space. Light target .44 Mag and anything low/middle in .45 Colt with lighter bullets are fine examples. I have never futzed with .45-70 reduced loads but I can only imagine how much empty space you'll be dealing with.

Titegroup is phenomenally consistent when there is a huge amount of empty space and a small charge weight.

I believe that the best way to use Titegroup, especially for small charge weights, is to charge a full tray of cartridges and get a good overhead light on them before capping with bullets and loading them single stage.
 
I’m a single stage charge and seat in one step kind of loader. Not gonna lie, Tightgroup scares me so probably won’t use it.

Really leaning to the Red Dot because it seems to have decent fluff and can use it for light .44 loads as well.

…and it’s available.
 
One reason I’m hesitant to try Tightgroup is the seemingly higher pressure spikes and the lower load density.
Click to expand...
If you don't like pressure spikes, then you should stay away from Trail Boss.
It was designed to have a burn rate with a fast spike to peak pressure, as close as they could get to the burn rate of BP. But, of course, it can spike way higher than BP, if given the opportunity.

So, when something goes wrong - compressed load, excessive broken donuts, or a light charge, it spikes like crazy.

I stopped using TB for anything, after a few 75%-fill loads blew rifle primers. (LR in .30-30 and SR in .32 H&R.) That takes at least 4-5x the pressure level I was looking for, and what would be safe in a BP gun. :eek:

Titegroup ramps up quickly, with small increases in powder charge, but it is at least predictable. TB, for me, was always fine ... until it decided it was time to blow a primer. Titegroup only gave me issues when I got sloppy with powder charge tolerances, and those "issues" were usually just along the lines of, 'oh, that one was a bit spicier.'
 
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