Love and Hate.. With a 1911.. (more love)

Funny. I was going to start a thread entitled I think I fell in love with my 1911 or something just now. I have been shooting for over 20 years myself and just this year got my first. A Range Officer in 45ACP. I shot it a couple of times and really liked it, but it seems like I had been leaving in the safe vs. other guns. Mostly due to the cost of ammo I suppose. I was actually thinking of selling it as it is mint and I got it cheap to begin with.

I took it to the range today with all this in mind and sighted it in with some WWB 240gr. I was there with my mom so we were shooting all kinds of stuff, but I took some time to work with the 1911. I was able to get 1 inch groups offhand with no rest repeated times at 50 feet. I can't say my G19 won't do that, but I don't think it would be as easy. It felt great and I think I fell in love. May look for one to carry!
 
Subjectivity only matters to those who aren't concerned with performance. For those interested in performance, only winning matters, and winning is meted out in very real terms. Capacity, for example, is a defining characteristic for a fighting handgun. Just about anything made currently possesses double the capacity, if not more. Weight is a very real concern for an operator or professional carrier of a weapon. At over 32 oz, the 1911 is a damnedable brick for what it brings to the fight. The list goes on and on, and these are not subjective opinions, they are simple, physical, entirely real, verifiable facts.
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What do you have to say about those of us who shoot for recreation?
Put down your tacticool glasses and look at the variety of uses for a handgun.
Capacity means I end up slinging more lead than I might have otherwise intended. After all, how many guys finish on a partial magazine?

What do you have to say about those of us who are inherently more accurate with the 1911 platform than the vast majority of handguns we've fired? My Kimber Custom (yeah, entry level no-bling gun) rates right in there with my Smith & Wesson 25-2 for my best long range accuracy. Despite my decades of shooting other platforms these two guns simply work for me.
I pick up the gun. I point the gun. The sights are on target. Done.
No learning a new hold. No long thousand round training sessions to get point of aim. It just fits.

People often ask me which gun they should buy for self defense. My answer is always the same. Pick a size they want. Handle every gun in that size. Buy the one that fits their hand best and has the most natural point of aim. That will likely be the best gun for them.

You see, it's a personal thing. That's VASTLY different from an emotional thing. Think of it this way. I am comfortable in my shoes. Chances are, you'd be miserable because your feet won't fit in these 14s. I could teach you to run in them but you'd never be as fast as you would running in your own shoes.
Your gun doesn't fit my hand. It's nothing against you or your choices. The thing does fit me. Therefore, I have no desire to own it.


The fact of the matter is that the 1911 has exactly two traits going for it: the single action, non-hinged trigger, and the slim-line single stack. A Glock 19 is 1.18 inches wide. How wide is your 1911? So, really, it the only advantage is a non-hinged trigger.
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Wrong.

The advantage is the trigger and the fact that it fits.
A Glock 19 is a horrible gun for me. It doesn't point instinctively. It is not comfortable. The weight balance of the gun changes significantly when shooting the magazine dry. That means there will be a more pronounced recoil and possible change in point of impact at distance.
I grab a Glock and the grip feels alien. It's like I grabbed a block of wood.
Can I shoot them consistently? Yes I can. However, it requires thought and training myself to hold the gun in an unnatural position. That means it will never be my "go to" gun.

Just because I personally place Glocks at the bottom of the pile of current high quality guns does not mean it's garbage. It just doesn't work for me.
Any work I put in forcing myself to build a rapport with an uncomfortable gun is time I can put in polishing my skills with a gun that is instinctive.

I'll keep the age old design. You can keep your Glock. We'll both be happy.
 
Most of the shooters on this board are not high-speed, low-drag operators in a combat zone or prowling around the 3rd world on covert missions.

For a recreational shooting enthusiast there's a lot to like about the 1911. Settle the hell down already.
 
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Easy fellas.

The question is, "why do people love 1911s", and my answer is, "because they do."

That is the answer because, except for the trigger mechanism, the 1911 doesn't really bring anything to the table which training or another platform does.

People talk a lot about "point" or "hand feel". The more you train with a firearm, the more easily it points. Fine, I'll admit that a 1911 is a great Goldilocks frame size, and it can serve as a kind of point of reference. If that is your reason for loving it, great.

Outside of performance/tangible reasons, I consider nearly every other reason to be subjective. As a result of being subjective, they are relatively meaningless outside of an individuals experience and have little bearing on the platform as a whole, or on another person's experience of the platform.

Let's just clear the air: loving a 1911 isn't a problem. I love all kinds of out dated crap just because I do. Shaving with a straight razor is very pleasant, etc. But I love them because I do, despite rationality or strong arguments to the contrary. If I wanted to drive a golfball 300 yards (I don't), and also wanted to use vintage gear, I'd have a really tough time using a century old club to clobber the ball as far as a modern composite club. Performance is measurable, tangible, real. Someone's love of period-piece nostalgia or whatever isn't real in the same way. Etc. Etc.
 
Had an austrian curtain rod designer with deep pockets and friends in high places, paid a team of small arms designers to 'invent' the 1911 and patented it in his name.....it would have been loved by all! No blocky chunk of plastic with plastic sights and a sproingy, dime store toy gun trigger will ever make history in real world battlefield conditions that even approach the 1911's.;)
 
Sure. Theres lots to love about the 1911... shape/feel, trigger, pointing, all-metal and of course they LOOK GREAT.
They do seem to have a soul of sorts.

But.. as time has passed... there's stuff not to love about them compared to other more modern designs. Capacity, rust'abity, weight, reliability on average, complexity, and so on..

I don't think they're useless for self defense, but there are more capable "tools" for the job.
Glock 21 for instance; same weight, almost twice the ammo, less recoil, arguably more reliable, unlikely to rust and at least a third fewer $$'s.. and you probably wont cry if you drop it, even into a lake.
But little of that does much good if you’re a great 1911 shot and cant hit a barn with the Glock.

Preference.
 
I'm with you. I still mostly carry my Glocks but I always fall in love (again, and again and again) with my 1911's. I'm dumping an aluminum frame Commander and keep trying to find a new all steel commander (I like all steel 1911's) for carry. But then I always realize that ON ME, the Glock 21 conceals just as easy, shoots as well (in my hands) at practical defensive distances, and holds more ammo.

But I still want a new commander, I'm thinking Ruger.
 
I like 1911s for their triggers and accuracy.

I also like them for aesthetics.

The entire reliability statement is always an entertaining one, because having torn down many pistol designs there's nothing inherently unreliable about a 1911 design versus the many semis that followed its design.

You can ream out a chamber to the point of near case separation and loosen all tolerances in the Glock way to ensure 'perfection' but I've had failures with every handgun I've owned--and the "oh it's limpwristing" is just a sad defense mechanism when the platform you've chosen to worship proves it's imperfect.

In either case, if there's ever a dire need, I'll just use the nearest handgun to ensure quick passage to my 308 AR.
 
Outside of performance/tangible reasons, I consider nearly every other reason to be subjective. As a result of being subjective, they are relatively meaningless outside of an individuals experience and have little bearing on the platform as a whole, or on another person's experience of the platform.

Let's just clear the air: loving a 1911 isn't a problem. I love all kinds of out dated crap just because I do. Shaving with a straight razor is very pleasant, etc. But I love them because I do, despite rationality or strong arguments to the contrary. If I wanted to drive a golfball 300 yards (I don't), and also wanted to use vintage gear, I'd have a really tough time using a century old club to clobber the ball as far as a modern composite club. Performance is measurable, tangible, real. Someone's love of period-piece nostalgia or whatever isn't real in the same way. Etc. Etc.
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We're talking about inanimate objects.

Performance can only refer to the person handling the gun.

Miculek can run his wheel gun as quicker than Leatham can run his 1911. Does that mean the revolver is superior?
NO.
It means that one guy is faster than the other.

There can be no argument. Different hands fit different guns. Different reactions fit different mechanical operating systems.

Sure, I can grab a Glock, send a few bazillion rounds down range, and build that highly tuned point/shoot capability.
Now, if I start with a platform that is better suited to my physical shape and natural positioning those few bazillion rounds will make me more capable with that platform than it would with the ill-fitting piece.


There is nothing wrong with either platform. It simply comes down to the individual's build and behavior.
 
I own and shoot more 1911s because I favor accuracy, good handling characteristics, and reliability in a pistol. If the preference was for capacity and likely lower cost, I would go with a plastic frame pistol. Nothing wrong with either, it is all in what you are looking for.
 
I like to tinker anyway, so the 1911's are perfect for me. I've tried a heck of a lot of guns but have mostly carried 1911's for over 30+ years, besides I've got a couple ex's that tell me I resist change why switch now.
 
I too love 1911's. The key to getting out of the love hate relationship is to buy a Dan Wesson (or higher end 1911)

- drop in parts???? Shows you're not buying the right guns.
- reliability....same issue.
- should you buy a Colt or SA that is not doing it for you, pay the money and a good smith can make it respectable for ~$1500.
 
The 1911 really is a miracle of engineering and its basic design carries forward in a whole lot of pistols.

The swinging link, sometimes a cam, but the same theory unlocks a lot of pistol actions out there, and is the heart of the weapon. The Petter patent I believe did away with the internal locking lugs and now locks up on the chamber which is basically a block of steel. More of a manufacturing improvement than anything else. It doesn't lock up any tighter than the original.

Its one of the first modular pistols that I can think of, especially when compared to the competition of the day such as the Luger, Broomhandle Mauser, etc. I don't know how many companies were contracted to build the pistol during 2 world wars, but there was a lot, and not all of them made firearms as a normal manufacture. The interchangability of parts between companies is amazing. If you want to launch a ball 45ACP from a semi automatic pistol despite the conditions of mud and whatever, you could do worse than a 1911.

We now ask it to be a jack of all trades.
A race gun.
A smaller gun.
A lighter gun.
A tighter gun.
A different caliber gun.
A bullseye gun.
A carry gun.
A launcher of bullet styles unknown at its conception.

The only other locking style in popular use is the dropping block and they are in a distinct minority.

Its really the grandfather of the modern semiautomatic pistol.

Respect yer grandpaw!
 
The trigger design of the 1911 vs any hinged lever trigger...makes the 1911 a superior feeling weapon ....and that trigger on the 1911, if properly fit and tuned, will have no slack, no creep - break like glass - ...and reset very cleanly.

The slim profile - single stack design of the 1911...makes it a very easy gun to carry.

There is no better option out there for most of us as a carry gun in my view / my primary carry gun is, and will continue to be a Wilson Combat 5" CQB model in .45 acp ....and its coming up on 9 yrs old now / has about 25,000 rds thru it ...and it has run 100% right out of the box.

Capacity is not an issue ...( learn to reload it ! ).../ besides in a confrontation, the experts say it'll be over in a few seconds with less than 5 rounds anyway..
( I have big clumsy double stack guns - Sig 226's in 9mm and .40 S&W - but I'll never carry them ). Bottom line, everyone should carry the weapon they shoot the best ...and for me, that is a 5" steel, 1911, hands down.
 
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