Love and Hate.. With a 1911.. (more love)

T

Tactical Jackalope

New member
Pardon my rant in advance. I have insomnia and I wanted to know if others feel this way as well. Wave through the gist of all this rambling.

So I'm really into "modern defensive pistols" so to speak. My main concealed carry weapons are the following.. A Glock 19 or 41. SIG Sauer P226. And just recently an HK P30.


For some reason, unknown to me on God's green earth. I always levitate back to a 1911.

The soul I know the 1911 has when I pick it up is unmatched. It's majestic. I literally pick up my Glock's (meh). My Hk (oooh...meh..). SIG's (I love you, but slight meh.)

My 1911 :) derrf.. :D

Pardon the animation, but I can't be the only one that feels this way.

I've had love / hate with 1911 because they're not necessarily "drop-in" when it comes to parts. They're higher maintenance. etc etc etc...

However, for CCW, the range, and work (gun shop). It's fine. I'm not in SF. Where I'll be in sand, mud, and water. (even though I AM in Miami) If I'm knowingly going into those elements I'll take the Glock, SIG, or HK.

Yes, I just don't "trust" 1911's THAT much yet. I had a huge bitch fit with them a while back and sold them all. My Smith and Wesson 1911 PD with the scandium frame has an external extractor that has worked flawlessly, plenty of character on the finish. It's a commander sized. Completely factory. Heck, I love it so much and it's the only one I kept, I ended up putting a Smith & Wesson 1911TA on layaway. It has a rail and everything, not to mention it's a government model. When that get's here, I think I may just melt because of how astonishingly gorgeous it is.

SO!

Anyone else have an unexplainable love for the 1911? Can someone more eloquent than I please explain it in a more articulated way? I'd greatly appreciate it.

Darn something in me tells me I'll be better off with a high cap modern 9mm but my soul tells me to carry the low capacity 45ACP BUT, in a 1911's design.

Soul... you have a way with being a cerebral assassin.


Rant off. much love.
 
They're undeniably cool.
My own feelings about 1911s are pretty much the same s my feelings about Jeep CJs.
They're cool, and if maintained properly they'll certainly get the job done.
But I don't have the time to tinker right now, so I traded both away, and got a Honda and a glock.

Both serve their intended purpose with less fuss, but neither generates a lot of emotion for me.

Someday when I have the time and the money I'll definitely buy another 1911 - and another CJ too.
 
Constantine said:
Anyone else have an unexplainable love for the 1911? Can someone more eloquent than I please explain it in a more articulated way? I'd greatly appreciate it.
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I don't know whether to characterize my affection for the 1911 as "love" or "respect." Part of it is certainly habit -- the 1911 is what every GI carried in the war movies when I was in my formative years. The M1911A1 is what I shot in the Army. And the 1911 is what I know how to work on.

Reliable in sand and dirt? That's what it was designed for. It only becomes unreliable in field conditions when it's made by so-called custom makers who think they know better than John M. Browning how to make a pistol, and do so by reducing the clearances to the point that a speck of lint will tie up the action. The M1911 and M1911A1 served the U.S. military through WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Even today many special ops units choose the 1911, and the Marine Corps just selected the 1911 Rail Gun as their new special operations pistol platform. If the gun didn't work under combat conditions, it certainly would not have survived for over 100 years in military service.

Your criteria for rating a 1911 seem to be cosmetic. I'm not looking for beauty in a pistol to which I entrust my life. "Form follows function." Fancy scalloping instead of functional slide serrations, snake-skin front strap treatments, hammers lightened to the point of being mere vestiges of what a hammer should be -- you can have it. To me, the epitome of a handgun is the current Colt 1991 Commander. No frills, it just gets the job done. In my eyes, there is no more beautiful handgun anywhere.
 
Can someone more eloquent than I please explain it in a more articulated way?
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No,you have reached the peak of eloquence.
I've had love / hate with 1911 because they're not necessarily "drop-in" when it comes to parts. They're higher maintenance. etc etc etc..
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Considering the number of manufacturers both foreign and domestic there is
amazing interchangeability of parts,this is an unfair common complaint.Owners will replace perfectly working parts with exotic aftermarket ones simply because
of an advertised improvement to performance expecting them to drop in.
As to maintenance,what is it that makes it "higher"?
 
I prefer the 1911 for two reasons.
They have proven to be the most accurate and reliable.
Yes, reliable.
Maybe those of you who have had other results just picked the wrong manufacturer.
The second reason is the huge number of sources for parts and accessories for them.
The Chevy 350 of pistols.
 
You know I'm all about the 1911 and anything based on the platform.. :D
I'm headed out cycling right now, so I have my Sig p238 on (based roughly on 1911 platform). My EDC is either the Sig p938 (again roughly around the platform) or my Sig 1911 Ultra Compact. My range gun sweetheart is my Sig STX 1911.
I've had other guns (we have other guns, Glock, HK, WC, SW, etc,) but my love and preference always goes back to the 1911 models or variances).
I just enjoy them.
 
For me it is a matter of love there is really no hate involved. I have been a fan for a long time. As my sister in law, who is an skilled operator, likes to say "I am one of those guys." It is not a nostalgia thing for me. It is not a longing to own the gun my father, grandfather etc... carried during the war. The 1911 for me comes down to 3 things.

  1. Trigger
  2. Feel in MY hand
  3. Natural pointability

Trigger: For me there is not other trigger that comes close. Even low end stock 1911s have a trigger that is simply hard to beat. The straight back trigger is a work of art. Most modern hinged triggers can't match it. This does not mean you cannot have a excellent triggers with other designs but for me a nicely tuned 1911 is the standard I judge others by. YMMV

Feel in my hands: Have small hands. Not only are my hands smaller but my fingers are short as well. This means a lot of guns which are setup for the avg to larger size hands simply are too large for me to get a proper grip. On larger autos I find myself adjusting what would be the correct grip in order to reach the trigger. With the 1911 this does not happen. The gun fits directly into the web of my hand and the my trigger finger ends up right where it needs to be. All the controls are within reach and can be manipulated without issue. This equals shootability for me. Hands down the gun is simpe to operate.

Pointability: This flows directly from the fit in my hand. For me the pointability of the 1911 is automatic. I pick up the gun with a proper grip and bring it into firing position and it is always on target. I have other guns which are similar like the BHP but for me the 1911 is the most natural pointer. This again makes the gun easy to shoot. When I fire it the gun naturally returns to a proper sight picture which allows me to shoot it better at speed. Again YMMV.

Major secondary considerations are the fact that there are tons of ways to customize the gun. You can take a stock gun and make it a one of a kind gun. You can tweak it so that it suits you and the way you shoot or want to shoot. This is however also one of the major traps/faults of the gun. There are too many crappy parts out there. There are too many parts which for the sake of marketing have been named "drop in parts."

Todays 1911 is not the same gun that JMB created. 1911s were originally designed and manufactured in a time when machine work/labor was more expensive than hand labor. The 1911 was designed and built to be put together by skilled or at least semi-skilled machinist. There was a lot of hand fitting. There was a lot of workmanship that went into even a GI gun. Today most 1911s are production guns made on CNC machines and assembled by people with limited skill with every little hand finishing. The original JMB design is treated more as a suggestion and the blueprint it was intended to be.

The fact everyone now makes a 1911 creates huge variances in the guns we call "1911s" Some have external extractor, full length guide rods, some are 3" barrels some are 5" +. Add to that the cheap molding and manufacture of parts by so many people you have almost unlimited opportunity to turn a perfectly functioning gun into a paper weight if you don't know what you are doing or pick the wrong smith to do your work.

This IMHO is the source of much of the myth that 1911s are unreliable. It is not the gun design that is unreliable. In fact I would argue that as designed by JMB it is one of the most reliable proven designs ever created. It is the modern execution and at time bastardization of the design that is the issue.

Also just because you can customize and change the gun does not mean you have to. 2 of my favorite 1911s are a older Colt 70 repo and a Sistema Colt. Both are stock but both shoot better than I am able to and are joy to shoot. They are both 100% reliable and if I had to would be comfortable defending my life with them.





Constantine over the years here on TFL I have seen some of your 1911 trials and tribulations. There had been a recurring theme IMHO. You have bought a lot of 1911s used. You have tried to replace parts yourself or had local smiths do your work. IIRC you had some work done by a known smith, Bob Serva, but unfortunately he has a rep of being hit or miss with his work depending on the volume in his shop. These customizations have ended in mixed results which sour ones love of the design.

I would give you at this point the same advice that I would give a first time 1911 buyer. Go buy a new 1911. There are 2 routes to go. Get a gun Govt stock Colt 80 series. Shoot it stock for 1000+ rounds. Note what you love about it and what you might change. Only after 1000+ rounds so you really know what you want from a custom or semi-custom 1911. From there you can either customize that gun or get another 1911 for customization. I personally always like to have at least one stock 1911 Govt as a frame of reference.

OR

You can get gun like the S&W 1911TA which has custom features that you like in a production gun and leave it alone. Again don't do anything to it until you have shoot 1000+ rounds. Then you can to the same process I suggested with the Govt. Change only what needs to be changed.

Final word about gunsmiths. I personally believe that unless you are 100% knowledgeable about the operation design and function of the 1911 you should not do customization yourself. Small parts replacement here and there is OK but "customization" is best left to professionals or people who really know their stuff. I am not one of them. If I am going to customize a gun I send it out to "known" smiths with stellar reps for stellar work. Yes they are expensive. Yes they have wait times and long turn times but I know that when I get the gun back it will be the way I wanted it it will run and if it doesn't they will fix it.

You know you love the 1911 the hate you have experienced is IMHO avoidable. Enjoy the S&W you got and the one on the way.
 
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No hate at all for the 1911. Love the guns - full size or commander. They shoot great, parts of any kind readily available. I find them easier to clean and maintain than many other guns. John Browning designed a great one.
 
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Final word about gunsmiths. I personally believe that unless you are 100% knowledgeable about the operation design and function of the 1911 you should not do customization yourself.
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Great advice and reason not to buy just any used one.
Way too many people imagine skills they don't have, probably egged on by all those gun magazine parts ads and how to articles.
The ones that leave out more than they say.
 
I've been shooting for more than 20 years. During that time, I've found very few guns that fit me better than a 1911. For my hand, it's just "right".

Yesterday, we had quite the selection of guns at the range. My friend's GF was looking for a different gun to shoot in competition. Between a few of us we have all the major manufacturers and popular guns covered.

The CZ works well for me but the angle of the beaver tail makes the gun point down significantly. My natural high grip pushes the gun deep into my hand and I have to tilt my wrist back to get on target. The DA first shot was disappointing considering the SA follow ups.

The Rugers and Sigs tend to point fairly well for me but I don't find them to be as comfortable.

An XD works fairly nicely.

When I picked up her Glock 19 I immediately dropped it back on the table. That is one of the most uncomfortable gun I've ever used. There was NOTHING appealing about holding that thing. I found it totally unnatural feeling and a bit alien to be honest.
Years ago, I had a coworker with every Glock known to man short of the 18. We took a bunch of them to the range and I didn't care for a single one of them. They just don't fit me.

Give me a 1911 with the proper grip, a good beaver tail, and a nice trigger. You'll make me happier than a puppy with two peters. For me, it's a natural fit and an all around beautiful thing. The SA trigger is the same from the first shot to the last. Trigger travel from rest, through over travel, to reset is minimal. That's the way a trigger should be, a simple bang switch.

Now, bear in mind that I'm a recreational shooter and don't play into all the tacticool games. I realize that there are marvelous guns out there and lots of the new stuff really works well. For me, it's simply hard to improve on the ergonomic design of a modern 1911.
 
I like my Colts in plain vanilla best. Blued, spur hammer, wood grips, old style grip safety, but because my eyes aren't what they once were, I do enjoy the taller fixed sights on the newer models. Feels like a well broken in set of work boots, ready for anything.
Beauty being subjective, but to me the 1911 in bone stock configuration has a beauty all its own.
 
The "point" of a firearm has more to do with your training on that particular platform than anything else. A glock points just fine if you train hard and regularly with it. So does just about any firearm.

That said, the 1911 is 'home' for me; it is where I started shooting handguns.

I do not own or carry a 1911, though, as their inherent limitations (size, weight, capacity, reliability) are not worth their strengths (ego gratification? nostalgia?).

Frankly, the whole 1911 thing smacks of ego. The axe does not care what you think about it one bit, it only splits wood. If an axe is bad at splitting wood, get another one that is better at it; the first one you had was bad at being an axe. There are simply too many other, better options out there now for the 1911 to be much other than a love story. I don't need to love my tools, I just need them to do their job flawlessly. If their function is what I expect, I may love them just the same, but the function comes first.
 
Would you post a few more Colt Sistema pics alongside the story?
Love them pieces to pieces.
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Bought it on gunbroker a few years ago. I wanted a old school stock Colt that did not cost me big $$$$. I found this Sistema at a fair price. It has not been refinished which many of them have. It still has its original blue as far as I can tell it is stock no replacement parts. Serial numbers match up. It did have a heavy mainspring which I replaced with a modern Colt part, I kept the original, but other than that it is as I got it.

Here are a few more pics... I really love it. It "feels" like a old school Colt which it is except in name only. They have really gone up in price in the last 10 years but if you are patient you can find a nice one.









 
All love, only hate the addicition. Will be at 8 end of next week. Going to call it quits at 9... Maybe that sistema is looking good. Does that count?
 
WVsig, that's a fair evaluation. It's true.. Love the Smith and Wesson I have and the one that's on the way is going to be another love of mine. Giving them another chance is great and I agree with not tinkering with stuff, especially since everyone and their mother makes a different variation of the parts to a 1911. Though, I already broke 1 cardinal rule if you think about it. Smith and Wesson... External extractors, which I love and swear by on 1911's in terms of longevity. The normal extractor is great, but it's a long piece of metal that needs to be tuned. Nothing the human eye can do. Whereas an external extractor is a drop in from S&W's factory parts.

I appreciate all the replies.

I don't need to love my tools, I just need them to do their job flawlessly. If their function is what I expect, I may love them just the same, but the function comes first.
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I hear ya, and no.. You don't. However on that note, there's nothing wrong if you absolutely love them either.
 
I bought my first 1911 in 1973. Still have it. Been many others come and go, a few are still here. I have a fondness for the 38 Super in the original 1911 platform. I love the 1911. Best military sidearm ever devised. Simple to make and repair, reliable, it does everything a fighting pistol should do.

Having said that, I confess to preferring the DA system for concealed carry. Open carry I would choose a 1911 in heartbeat. But undercover I like the DA better.

Here's my first 1911. Looks a bit different than when it was new in 1973.

standard.jpg
 
Sistema

Thank you,appreciate.
11.25mm ain't that quaint? Can you tell if the MS housing has a relief cut under
the lanyard loop?I think at this point in time it is a matter of money rather than
patience and I seem to be short of both.Vicarious pleasure they call it.
 
redhologram said:
I'm headed out cycling right now, so I have my Sig p238 on (based roughly on 1911 platform).
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The P238 is not in any way based on the 1911 platform.

The P238 is a clone of the Colt Mustang, which in turn was derived from a Spanish Star (or Astra?) pistol. There is virtually nothing about the P238 that would even suggest it is derived from the 1911.

Don't get me wrong -- I own a Mustang, and I think it's a great little pistol. But it's not based on the 1911.
 
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