Lots of African hunting videos...this is BS!
- Thread starter Remmy
- Start date
Remmy, you keep saying people don't get your point, but you keep falling back on the same point. You say you want to "keep the killing honorable."
The point everyone else is trying to make is that what those hunters are doing doesn't seem dishonorable to us.
Why is it dishonorable? Why is it wrong to kill something you yourself won't eat, for instance, as long as someone else keeps it from going to waste? There are people in Illinois who hunt whitetails solely to give them to Sportsmen Against Hunger, which gives them to homeless shelters. It's essentially the same thing.
If I might offer an opinion, it seems maybe this is your emotional reaction. Take a day or two to think about it and you might see their points more easily.
PS--Don't tell Rich how dishonorable he is unless you're sure!
The point everyone else is trying to make is that what those hunters are doing doesn't seem dishonorable to us.
Why is it dishonorable? Why is it wrong to kill something you yourself won't eat, for instance, as long as someone else keeps it from going to waste? There are people in Illinois who hunt whitetails solely to give them to Sportsmen Against Hunger, which gives them to homeless shelters. It's essentially the same thing.
If I might offer an opinion, it seems maybe this is your emotional reaction. Take a day or two to think about it and you might see their points more easily.
PS--Don't tell Rich how dishonorable he is unless you're sure!
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Maybe it's because I spent a lot of time around my grandparents' farming/ranching activities, but I have the attitude that meat's meat. Some animals might be prettier than others, but in the final analysis it's just food.
A hunter is a do-it-yourselfer in providing his meat. Meat from a grocery or in a restaurant just means you've hired somebody else to do the scut work for you.
Some people are ethical/moral/honorable in business, marriage or hunting. Some are not. You cannot rationally judge all of any group by the actions of just a few.
, Art
A hunter is a do-it-yourselfer in providing his meat. Meat from a grocery or in a restaurant just means you've hired somebody else to do the scut work for you.
Some people are ethical/moral/honorable in business, marriage or hunting. Some are not. You cannot rationally judge all of any group by the actions of just a few.
, ArtRemmy,
As a point of fact Baboons are killed on sight as pests and varmints in parts of Africa. they are very destructive crop and live stock raiders.
If there was no fee regulated hunting of elephants there would be no elephants left in much of Africa. Too exotic??? How about over populated and starving to death in many places!
As long as we are agreeing with your point of view why don't we just stop hunting all together after all the Whitetail is an exotic and rare animal in my part of the country.
Honorable? I find hunting dangerous game far more honorable than than mere deer shooting after all deer don't kill hunters very often "Water Buffalo" actually they are Cape Buffalo, do, along with lions and elephants.
Third point of fact it's people like you that are going to kill hunting in the long run. Your highly emotional yet totaly ignorant attitude towards hunting is exactly the type of divison that groups like PETA and Fund for Animals will use to rip us apart.
As a matter of fact why don't you get off your a** and actually go to Africa and see for your self of what I speak. And not some frickin zebra striped tour bus in some glorified disney land park either but the real Africa.
I think remmy that we have a clasic case of to much pop cluture left wing television historian going on here. National geographic and Discovery channel only program what they think will sell advertising. The truth can rarely be wrestled from modern day programing.
As a point of fact Baboons are killed on sight as pests and varmints in parts of Africa. they are very destructive crop and live stock raiders.
If there was no fee regulated hunting of elephants there would be no elephants left in much of Africa. Too exotic??? How about over populated and starving to death in many places!
As long as we are agreeing with your point of view why don't we just stop hunting all together after all the Whitetail is an exotic and rare animal in my part of the country.
Honorable? I find hunting dangerous game far more honorable than than mere deer shooting after all deer don't kill hunters very often "Water Buffalo" actually they are Cape Buffalo, do, along with lions and elephants.
Third point of fact it's people like you that are going to kill hunting in the long run. Your highly emotional yet totaly ignorant attitude towards hunting is exactly the type of divison that groups like PETA and Fund for Animals will use to rip us apart.
As a matter of fact why don't you get off your a** and actually go to Africa and see for your self of what I speak. And not some frickin zebra striped tour bus in some glorified disney land park either but the real Africa.
I think remmy that we have a clasic case of to much pop cluture left wing television historian going on here. National geographic and Discovery channel only program what they think will sell advertising. The truth can rarely be wrestled from modern day programing.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Unintended Consequences: Probably the worst enemies of rational interactions with wildlife--anywhere--were Felix Salter and Walt Disney.
Salter authored "Bambi", and we're all pretty much familiar with the rosy views of Disney's wildlife portrayals. Getting morals and aesthetics involved with your food supply might be a good way to lose weight, I guess...
, Art
Salter authored "Bambi", and we're all pretty much familiar with the rosy views of Disney's wildlife portrayals. Getting morals and aesthetics involved with your food supply might be a good way to lose weight, I guess...
, ArtH&H hunter...
"Third point of fact it's people like you that are going to kill hunting in the long run. "
I find that comment as an insult, but because you dont know me and it is really hard to get points across to some via typing/internet i can understand you could think that....Even though i never pictured myself as that type. I was feeling very refreshed reading the other very informative posts, and was realizing more and more what each was saying...because i was so uninformed.
A couple of notes: I dont think i mentioned anywhere that these animals were too exotic to shoot, someone else started that i think... but regardless, i didnt think what i was saying was "highly emotional". Just because i have opinions about how an animal is taken, that is highly emotional? And i didnt mean what is honorable in the hunt, the fact that cape buffalo can kill a man doesnt make the kill more honorable. The manner in which any animal is put down is what i believe to be the ethics or honor in a hunt... Typing out my thoughts is kind of difficult here...but i dont want anyone to think that i dont condone hunting.
I was however uninformed about alot of things, and reading so many of these informative posts have enlightened me...i never really intended to start up the post for argumentative purposes. Maybe i stuck my foot in my mouth a couple of times, but I guess thats what comes with the territory.
(that was probably a big ramble)
"Third point of fact it's people like you that are going to kill hunting in the long run. "
I find that comment as an insult, but because you dont know me and it is really hard to get points across to some via typing/internet i can understand you could think that....Even though i never pictured myself as that type. I was feeling very refreshed reading the other very informative posts, and was realizing more and more what each was saying...because i was so uninformed.
A couple of notes: I dont think i mentioned anywhere that these animals were too exotic to shoot, someone else started that i think... but regardless, i didnt think what i was saying was "highly emotional". Just because i have opinions about how an animal is taken, that is highly emotional? And i didnt mean what is honorable in the hunt, the fact that cape buffalo can kill a man doesnt make the kill more honorable. The manner in which any animal is put down is what i believe to be the ethics or honor in a hunt... Typing out my thoughts is kind of difficult here...but i dont want anyone to think that i dont condone hunting.
I was however uninformed about alot of things, and reading so many of these informative posts have enlightened me...i never really intended to start up the post for argumentative purposes. Maybe i stuck my foot in my mouth a couple of times, but I guess thats what comes with the territory.
(that was probably a big ramble)
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Rambling's okay; it's sorta like thinking out loud.
What's important is the thinking. There's often quite a shortage of thinking, as opposed to emoting.
As usual,
Art
What's important is the thinking. There's often quite a shortage of thinking, as opposed to emoting.
As usual,
Art
Remmy,
When I reread my post I realised that it did get more than a little personal. For that I apologize.
You see your thread hit a raw spot with me and I took it personal as well.
African hunting is about lots of things, beautifull scenery, unbelevable hunting experiences, rich history, cool guns, weird calibers and characters of unimaginable ecentricity. Not to mention the economic and cultural boon to the local economy. You see hunting is not a sport to many natives it's a life, when asked what do you do a man will proudly stand and tell you he's a tracker or a hunter or skinner. These people take great pride in their profession and are revered as such in the bush of Africa. I felt that your comments were undermining the true fabric of this deep and rich tradition of African hunting.
Please accept my appology for taking it to the personal level. I also can see your point about some of these blood and guts videos out there some of them do cheapin the experience. I think however, many are just trying to capture the true drama of the hunt tend to go over board a bit.
Sincerely
H&Hhunter.
When I reread my post I realised that it did get more than a little personal. For that I apologize.
You see your thread hit a raw spot with me and I took it personal as well.
African hunting is about lots of things, beautifull scenery, unbelevable hunting experiences, rich history, cool guns, weird calibers and characters of unimaginable ecentricity. Not to mention the economic and cultural boon to the local economy. You see hunting is not a sport to many natives it's a life, when asked what do you do a man will proudly stand and tell you he's a tracker or a hunter or skinner. These people take great pride in their profession and are revered as such in the bush of Africa. I felt that your comments were undermining the true fabric of this deep and rich tradition of African hunting.
Please accept my appology for taking it to the personal level. I also can see your point about some of these blood and guts videos out there some of them do cheapin the experience. I think however, many are just trying to capture the true drama of the hunt tend to go over board a bit.
Sincerely
H&Hhunter.
Remmy,
I'm a trapper and I often kill without eating,but it's not without a purpose.I mainly target foxes and coyotes which are reducing our quail population to next to nothing.The African equivalent are taking food out of the mouths of countless of sheep herders and farmers.Trapping or shooting a jackal or a coyote may not be glamorous,but it serves a big purpose.
I'm a trapper and I often kill without eating,but it's not without a purpose.I mainly target foxes and coyotes which are reducing our quail population to next to nothing.The African equivalent are taking food out of the mouths of countless of sheep herders and farmers.Trapping or shooting a jackal or a coyote may not be glamorous,but it serves a big purpose.
Apology accepted H&Hhunter, i understand tempers can flare when people discuss issues that are very important to them. I did/do however understand the importance of hunting, and some other concepts mentioned, although i was not aware of all the details of others...
pawcatch: I do the same, i have shot foxes and hunted coyotes myself...many people kind of swayed what i was saying, which may have led you to believe that i was against that. Im NOT...
This is getting really exhausted now, haha... some of its good discussion i reckon though
pawcatch: I do the same, i have shot foxes and hunted coyotes myself...many people kind of swayed what i was saying, which may have led you to believe that i was against that. Im NOT...
This is getting really exhausted now, haha... some of its good discussion i reckon though
Pigshooter
New member
More important than culling the herds to prevent overpopulation, african game management brings in the revenue and will to prevent poaching, which is the real threat to these fine beasts.
I too have to use, or intend to use, some part of my prey or I just don't feel right. Not necessarily food, but fur, horn, claws, whatever. Exceptions might include an animal which presents a danger or unexpected danger.
Heck, I even skin skunks.
I too have to use, or intend to use, some part of my prey or I just don't feel right. Not necessarily food, but fur, horn, claws, whatever. Exceptions might include an animal which presents a danger or unexpected danger.
Heck, I even skin skunks.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Pigshooter, back when I was a mean, evil, bad-nasty little kid and not the suave, debonair*, kind-hearted soul that I now am, I discovered the effect of "skunk oil" when applied liberally to the intake of a car's ventilation system.
Just a thought...
Art
* Sometimes deliberately mispronounced "swayve and deboner", indicating the opposite...
Just a thought...
Art
* Sometimes deliberately mispronounced "swayve and deboner", indicating the opposite...
jdthaddeus
New member
While I was an undergrad I did research studies under two conservation experts, one specializing in elephants and the other in tigers and other "exotics".
One thing that most people do not understand about "endangered species" is that the species is not endangered, rather their habitat is. The species itself has no problem keeping itself alive, as long as it has an habitat.
For instance the "endangered" tiger exists more in captivity today than in the wild. People who keep tigers in cages as "pets" get criticized, but if it were not for those people, the tiger would have nowhere to live. More to the point, people that house tigers actually have to give the cats drugs to PREVENT them from reproducing! Tigers reproduce like rabbits! There is no problem getting as many tigers as we want, we just need places to put them.
You could apply this same theme to lions. I would be willing to bet there is no shortage of lions, and shooting one is not going to make a difference, especially when you are paying for their habitat to exist.
Where this leads is to a new perspective on "endangered" animals. Just because an animal is endangered does not mean that if you kill one you are doing a disservice. There may be plenty of the animal to go around, it is the habitat that is really endangered.
From here you can see that hunters do a great service to the species, when they pay big bucks to go shoot one. Hunters pay for the habitat that the animals live in. Without hunters funding that habitat, there would be none left, period.
And, as was said above, many of these creatures are seen as pests in other countries. We have to pay the people NOT to kill the animals such as baboons. If you can imagine, people in these countries get pretty annoyed when we come over and tell them that they can't kill pests. It would be like someone coming over from china and telling you that you are no longer allowed to kill termites because they are sacred animals.
PETA and other groups have given a false impression to people concerning these issues. They demonize people that that keep tigers as pets, for example, when these people are the only ones giving the species a place to live. They demonize hunters, when hunters are the ones paying for the habitat so that these animals have a place to live....and hunters have been funding and managing balaced ecosystems long before it was trendy.
I have more to say but I don't want to be lengthy. These groups have been successful at convincing people that if a lion kills an animal it is the balance of nature and ethical, but if a man kills an animal it is somehow immoral.
One thing that most people do not understand about "endangered species" is that the species is not endangered, rather their habitat is. The species itself has no problem keeping itself alive, as long as it has an habitat.
For instance the "endangered" tiger exists more in captivity today than in the wild. People who keep tigers in cages as "pets" get criticized, but if it were not for those people, the tiger would have nowhere to live. More to the point, people that house tigers actually have to give the cats drugs to PREVENT them from reproducing! Tigers reproduce like rabbits! There is no problem getting as many tigers as we want, we just need places to put them.
You could apply this same theme to lions. I would be willing to bet there is no shortage of lions, and shooting one is not going to make a difference, especially when you are paying for their habitat to exist.
Where this leads is to a new perspective on "endangered" animals. Just because an animal is endangered does not mean that if you kill one you are doing a disservice. There may be plenty of the animal to go around, it is the habitat that is really endangered.
From here you can see that hunters do a great service to the species, when they pay big bucks to go shoot one. Hunters pay for the habitat that the animals live in. Without hunters funding that habitat, there would be none left, period.
And, as was said above, many of these creatures are seen as pests in other countries. We have to pay the people NOT to kill the animals such as baboons. If you can imagine, people in these countries get pretty annoyed when we come over and tell them that they can't kill pests. It would be like someone coming over from china and telling you that you are no longer allowed to kill termites because they are sacred animals.
PETA and other groups have given a false impression to people concerning these issues. They demonize people that that keep tigers as pets, for example, when these people are the only ones giving the species a place to live. They demonize hunters, when hunters are the ones paying for the habitat so that these animals have a place to live....and hunters have been funding and managing balaced ecosystems long before it was trendy.
I have more to say but I don't want to be lengthy. These groups have been successful at convincing people that if a lion kills an animal it is the balance of nature and ethical, but if a man kills an animal it is somehow immoral.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
jd, some five-ish or so years back, a TV program on African wildlife focussed on elephants. It showed both the poaching problems for illegal ivory, and the habitat destruction brought about by the elephants, themselves.
It explained the benefits of the $30,000/elephant license fee, with a portion going to villagers and thus giving them a vested financial interest in protecting the elephants from poachers.
Unfortunately, it closed (and left a final memory) with a comment by a young woman of some "conservation" group. Her comment was that she almost wished for extinction of such a noble beast, rather than allow any to be shot by hunters. (Yet she professed awareness of the benefits of licensed hunting!)
When you're dealing with such views, such styles of emotional lack of judgement, rational interactions with wildlife is nearly impossible.
Art
It explained the benefits of the $30,000/elephant license fee, with a portion going to villagers and thus giving them a vested financial interest in protecting the elephants from poachers.
Unfortunately, it closed (and left a final memory) with a comment by a young woman of some "conservation" group. Her comment was that she almost wished for extinction of such a noble beast, rather than allow any to be shot by hunters. (Yet she professed awareness of the benefits of licensed hunting!)
When you're dealing with such views, such styles of emotional lack of judgement, rational interactions with wildlife is nearly impossible.
Art