Looking for that perfect 1700 yard gun.

Co has game laws dealing with wounding of elk and other big game animals. I think at some point they may have to deal LR hunting and the wounding of animals.

I know units I hunt, 1700yd take me longer to get to elk and if first shot wounds whats chances of getting second shot or even finding him.

I drew 4th season cow tag last year and some LR guys had deer tags for unit I was in. they had some pretty nice rifles but most had couple guys spotting for them and they never walked other than getting out of truck and glassing. the guys spotting didn't have rifles so that was legal.
 
I really hate ragging on stupid questions but even the fact I'm not a hunter I realized this is a stupid question. Almost seems trollish considering the op has 5 posts. But when asked a stupid question one deserves a stupid reply: so that being said, who here is a professional Elk sniper ?
 
Maybe I'm OCD, but my first clue that this is an ignorant troll is the the thread title... "The perfect 1700yd gun"

Anybody that has spent enough time and money to be proficient at even a paltry (:rolleyes:) 1000yds isn't going to refer to his/her weapon as a "gun". It's like calling a magazine a clip...
 
I was wrong, the perfect 1700 yard elk gun might be the 5/54 caliber Mark 45.

Unfortunately the elk would need to be within about 12 miles of coast or major inland waterway.
 
SansSouci said:
taylor,

This is hunting, not playing military sniper. We're hunting real big game animals. We have ethical responsibility to assure quick, humane kills. A wounded big game animal is one gut-wrenching sight. I never want to see another.

I have used spotters when elk hunting. They were part of my guide's fee. While it was a rut bull elk hunt which made finding them a lot easier not to mention thrilling, the spotters' jobs were to locate shooter bulls. They used binos only. My guide's job was to get me close enough for a quick kill. He disdained long range shots. He didn't want me to have to shoot beyond 250 yards. He was darn good at his job. He got me to within 130 yards of a monster bull.
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I realize we're talking hunting, but if you're shooting game at long range it takes team work like a military sniper team. Ensuring first shot kills is the name of the game hunting close up or long range, but at long range teamwork makes a first shot kill more likely to happen. With proper teamwork the spotter controls the shot, lets the hunter know when they can or can not shoot. While you had a guide, you've not worked in tandem with a real spotter.

Spotter's usually have a wider field of view and can see things that the shooter can't. The spotter makes all the wind judgments, all the calculations, and tracks the bullet flight to target. Since the spotter is controlling all of this so that the shooter can concentrate on the shooting fundamentals. In a proper team the shooter will never make a shot without the spotter's green light, but if the spotter has never worked with the shooter then they have no clue as to the skills of the shooter.

We can talk ethics all we want about not taking a 1700 yard shot on elk, but the truth of the matter is people are going to try it regardless of what we say. I personally would never attempt a shot on elk at 1700 yards, but there are videos on youtube of elk of a 12 year old shooting at 1376 yards. It's only a matter of time until someone stretches out the remaining 324 yards.
 
We can talk ethics all we want about not taking a 1700 yard shot on elk, but the truth of the matter is people are going to try it regardless of what we say.
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Well, some people are morons.

I personally would never attempt a shot on elk at 1700 yards, but there are videos on youtube of elk of a 12 year old shooting at 1376 yards. It's only a matter of time until someone stretches out the remaining 324 yards.
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Also morons. How many shots did he take that were not filmed?
 
Calling people morons is a great way to get your point across. :rolleyes: What state do you live in? I'd like to know what practices are allowed in your part of the country that others might find unethical in theirs.

Just like party hunting is a foreign concept to me and unethical where I hunt, but it's allowed in some states. Same with using dogs to run deer, baiting game, or high fences are often times seen as unethical was to hunt. However, in many states these things are done and part of tradition.
 
The OP was obviously a novice who needed schooling, not ridicule. He only had 5 posts and I doubt there will be a sixth. Lets remember that the purpose of a forum is to exchange ideas and help one another. So let's rein in the testosterone, check our egos, and try to be civil.
 
Calling people morons is a great way to get your point across. What state do you live in? I'd like to know what practices are allowed in your part of the country that others might find unethical in theirs.
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You mean aside from the gambling and whores? Nothing I can think of.

The OP was obviously a novice who needed schooling, not ridicule. He only had 5 posts and I doubt there will be a sixth. Lets remember that the purpose of a forum is to exchange ideas and help one another. So let's rein in the testosterone, check our egos, and try to be civil.
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I gave up on that about the 30th time a thread like this came up. I also was not ridiculing him, I mentioned a few reasons why trying to shoot at an elk a mile away is a mind numbingly stupid idea earlier in the thread. Here are a few more. I stand by my opinion that generally speaking, anyone who shoots at a game animal at 1000 yards plus is a moron, who has no respect for the animal they are hunting.

All the other variables aside, VERY few shooter/rifle combinations are accurate enough to make such a shot. If your nifty .338 Lapua is a 1/2 MOA gun from sandbags on a bench, it is very unlikely the same rifle will shoot that well from an improvised position in the field. Even if the shooter is capable of the same hold in a field position as a bench, that is still a 8.5" circle at 1700 yards.

What is the wind doing 34 feet above your head? What is it doing 34 feet above your head ~1000 yards towards the target? That is where the bullet will be, a second and a half after you shoot. Remember, a 1 MPH misread of the wind conditions moves your point of impact 19" at the target.

Flight time to the target is about 3 seconds. That is a lot of time for the elk to decide that blade of grass over there looks tasty and take a step.

Again, misjudging the range by 10 yards puts your elevation off by ~20"

What is your latitude, and what is the true bearing to the target?

Have some respect for the animal you are hunting. You should not take a shot unless there is a high probability of a clean kill, and that simply will not happen at 1700 yards.

Now if the OP or anyone else is a delicate flower, and can't take a little hard reality, I am truly sorry for them.
 
This thread in a nutshell is, like a lot of things just because you can do something irresponsible, unethical, and a lot of other adjectives like lobbing bullets at elk from a mile away, doesn't mean you ever should.
 
taylorce1,

Big game hunting does not require assistance of a spotter. Unless I'm with a guide, I always hunt by myself. When we break camp in mornings, each of us already have plans of where we're going to hunt, which means we can cover a lot more territory.

I'd seriously doubt that guides would act as game sniping spotters.

I've never, ever seen a hunter use a spotter in the manner in which you've described...ever! But then again, I've never run in to a big game sniper. I'd imagine that they stay close to roads. Could be they're aware of their lack of hunting skill. As for hunters that I know, we walk to where we think we're going to find game.

I do not own a spotting scope. I do own a pair of 10X binos. I do a lot of glassing make logical inferences of where I'll likely find game I'm hunting.

My suggestion if to spend a lot more time scouting before opening day. That way you'll have a better idea of big game patterns and where you're likely to find bucks/bulls at sunup on opening day. More of that way: you won't need a spotter. All you'll need are hunting and shooting skills.

Best of luck to you.
 
SansSouci said:
taylorce1,

Big game hunting does not require assistance of a spotter. Unless I'm with a guide, I always hunt by myself. When we break camp in mornings, each of us already have plans of where we're going to hunt, which means we can cover a lot more territory.

I'd seriously doubt that guides would act as game sniping spotters.

I've never, ever seen a hunter use a spotter in the manner in which you've described...ever! But then again, I've never run in to a big game sniper. I'd imagine that they stay close to roads. Could be they're aware of their lack of hunting skill. As for hunters that I know, we walk to where we think we're going to find game.

I do not own a spotting scope. I do own a pair of 10X binos. I do a lot of glassing make logical inferences of where I'll likely find game I'm hunting.

My suggestion if to spend a lot more time scouting before opening day. That way you'll have a better idea of big game patterns and where you're likely to find bucks/bulls at sunup on opening day. More of that way: you won't need a spotter. All you'll need are hunting and shooting skills.

Best of luck to you.
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Again show me where I said big game hunting required a spotter. I merely stated that if one wanted to shoot big game at long range they would be better off to employ the use of a spotter. The spotter is there to help ensure a successful first shot, and not the wounding one where the animal is lost and not recovered.

Just because a someone chooses to make a shot at long range doesn't mean that he/she lacks the fieldcraft to get closer. It might mean that an opportunity for an animal that wasn't seen in preseason scouting presents itself. Hunting pressure during your season might mean that what you patterned during preseason scouting trips isn't happening. Plus the skill to make a long range shot is never a bad one.

We can discuss choices in optics all you want, I use 10X binoculars as well. They are great for locating animals, but I use a spotter to tell me if that particular animal is worth making a stalk on it. A spotting scope is just another too in the tool box and one that allows me to cover far more ground than binoculars alone.

My buddy would argue the benefits of a good spotting scope as well. Now his hunt wasn't long range hunting, unless you factor the hike in and out. However, like I said I neither condemn or condone long range hunting but it's here to stay. The ranges will only get longer as the tools get better and better.


emcon5 said:
You mean aside from the gambling and whores? Nothing I can think of.
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Nevada then allows the use of any .22 caliber centerfire rifle that generates 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards legal for use on big game. So how many people try to use the .223 in their AR or any other rifle for that matter to take an elk? I find that one on the questionable side of the ethics debate but yet perfectly legal for a hunter to choose to do so.

Unfortunately a lot of things happening these days are because they can legally, not because they shouldn't ethically. When someone can come up with a way to enforce distance limitations on hunting, then I'm all in favor of new regulations for it. However, be careful of what you ask for you just might get it. I'm sure any kind of regulation to enforce range limitations would price tags out of site for most resident and nonresident hunters alike. I do know Idaho put a maximum weight allowable for a rifle of 16lbs to be to limit the use of the .50 BMG and similar cartridges for big game hunting.

Rifle and Shotgun
In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is unlawful to
pursue or kill big game animals:
• By any means other than approved firearms,
muzzleloaders and archery methods.
• With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated
on, the firearm or scope; except scopes containing
battery powered or tritium lighted reticles are allowed.
• With any firearm that, in combination with a scope,
sling and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16
pounds.
• With any fully automatic firearm.
• With any shotgun using shot smaller than #00 buck.
• With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzleloading
handgun, except for mountain lions or legally trapped
gray wolves.
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Nevada then allows the use of any .22 caliber centerfire rifle that generates 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards legal for use on big game. So how many people try to use the .223 in their AR or any other rifle for that matter to take an elk? I find that one on the questionable side of the ethics debate but yet perfectly legal for a hunter to choose to do so.
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Actually I don't believe they specify caliber, just energy, 1000ft-lbs at 100 yards. If you can get there with a .17 it would be legal.

Stupid, but legal.

Not sure what you point is. Never suggested that there was any law against shooting game animals at long range, just that it is entirely unethical.

Have some respect for the animal.
 
Rifles
Must use a center-fire cartridge of .22 caliber or larger. Must have 1000 pounds of energy at 100 yards.
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I find it amazing you don't even know your own state's regulations. Just like I find it amazing that we can't have a meaningful discussion on long range hunting without name calling, and getting on the soap box. List the pros and cons and allow the OP to make his own decisions.

If the OP has all the information without being called a troll or a moron, they are more likely to change their minds. I know when offend me, I'm more likely to do the opposite of what they want. It's called human nature to be this way.

emocon5 said:
Not sure what you point is. Never suggested that there was any law against shooting game animals at long range, just that it is entirely unethical.
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My point was that every state has practices that people who don't hunt there can find unethical even though it's legal. I just happened to mention that using a .223 was legal on elk in your state. I was also guessing that you would find hunting elk with a .223 as distasteful as shooting one at 1700 yards with a .338 Lapua Magnum or other similar cartridge.
 
I dont think the OP actually intends to hunt elk and other game at that type of range, more of a "i want a super accurate super powerful rifle because my 6.5grendel doesnt have enough horsepower to satisfy."

But incase he does intend to hunt with such things at such ranges,

By the time it would take the bullet to get to the target at that far a range, the animal could possibly hear the sound of the gunshot or echo through the valleys and jump or run or duck and result in a miss or poor shot. Plus at these ranges what grouping size would you seriously expect? An elk heart is what- 4 to six inches wide? Good luck making that shot at that range with any rifle under hunting conditions. It is possibly but unlikely.

Now you could get a custom savage or something like that with a super heavy bull barrel and action made up for probably under $3000, maybe under $2000. A genuine long range cartridge like the .284 Norma or something like that would do well for 1000 plus hard shooting. Ask the shooters who shoot 1000 plus yards what they like and use and go from there
 
By the time it would take the bullet to get to the target at that far a range, the animal could possibly hear the sound of the gunshot or echo through the valleys and jump or run or duck and result in a miss or poor shot.
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While there are MANY things wrong with shooting at long range like that, this is not one of them. We're talking about supersonic rifles here, so the bullet will arrive well in advance of the sound.
 
You know as a practical "back of the napkin" exercise...

The speed of sound is around 1125 fps (changes with altitude and density). Time of flight on a bullet going 1,700 yards is around 3 seconds (give or take depending on the load used) with a transition to subsonic happening at around 1,400 yards.

So the original muzzle report will ahve traveled to the 3375 foot mark at three seconds, or 1,125 yards, while whatever noise generated by the bullet transitioning from supersonic to subsonic barely reaches 1,700 before the bullet does (the 900 feet give the soundwave about a tenth of a second arrival advantage, not enough in my opinion to matter).

But it will be another 1.5 seconds before the muzzle report catches up to the target at 1,700 yards.

Math is fun.

Jimro
 
I find it amazing you don't even know your own state's regulations.
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I do know them, I looked them up before responding. And yeah, I had to look them up. I haven't hunted since I moved here, drawings for the local area are close enough to impossible not to bother, and I am not willing to drive 300 miles each way to get to where I would end up having to hunt.

You may want to actually read the referenced regs from the page you linked, because that page is wrong.

NRS 503.150  Manner of hunting game birds or mammals.

(b) Big game mammals in any manner other than with a rifle, held in the hand, that exerts at least 1,000 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards, or with a longbow and arrow which meet the specifications established by Commission regulation.
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The word "Caliber" does not appear anywhere in that document. The other cited regulation involves exceptions to (b) above, for muzzleloaders and pistols. "22 caliber" does appear there, but only for handguns.

So unless it is in some reg other than what is cited that I can't find, if you could get a .17 caliber bullet fast enough to still have 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards, it would be legal. Like I said, stupid, but legal.

And no, I am not a big fan of hunting big game with a .223, certainly not elk.

And frankly I don't buy in to your view that calling someone who intentionally does something stupid a moron somehow encourages them to do stupid things.

I think if more people said "That is a stupid thing to do, and this is why" whenever someone says they want to do something stupid, people would do fewer stupid things. I also covered the why three times before I mentioned moron way down on post 46. If someone reads this whole thread, full of reasons why it is a horrible idea and decides, "I am going to do it anyway, what do those folks and that guy who taught snipers in the Army know", then they are not very smart.

And there really is no way to sugar coat it, shooting at a game animal a mile away is deep fried stupid, with a side of stupid sauce, washed down with a nice frosty mug of stupid.
 
Everybody here seems to have more real world experience than me. Since this is the internet, I'll offer my opinion anyway.

Just the math before you take a 1700 yard shot is difficult. You can get a feel for it using a online simulator.

http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html

Somebody mentioned 2700 yards earlier the "longest sniper shot". Seems like I read that 6 ranging shots were required before that sniper got his man.
 
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I took a 1000 yd instructional class this past summer. Thus far i'm a decent 600 yd shooter typically shooting about 2 MOA. At 1K yds it took me a total of 6 shots to score a hit on a 12" balloon at 1K with a well set up .300 win mag. This was with the help of a trained expert instructor assisting me with my critical input dope calculations such as wind, spin drift , and humidity. Aspects like timing your respiratory pause and heartbeat become FAR more of a factor at long range accuracy. If some internet laptop big game sniper commando thinks he can just guess a distance into his Android phone ballistics app and just pull the trigger at 1700 yds and score a hit is just a crock of schiz. But none the less this is an entertaining thread. :D
 
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