Looking for negative feedback on Kimber Ultra Carry, CZ50/70 and HK P7M8

O

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
These are three guns on my shopping list. I wonder about Kimber's backstrap which feels like a rasp but otherwise it seems perfect. P7 points well but I wonder about its size and weight in proportion to the power. CZ50/70 is cheap, points well for me but is an unknown (my gunsmith carries one at times, otoh the one I fired at the range jammed with ball ammo).

If you have owned any of these three and decided to get rid of it (or relegate to a safe shelf), tell me the reasons.
 
I own a Kimber PRO CDP and a H&K P7M8 and the only foreseeable reason to sell either one would be one of my children needing a bone marrow transplant or something else equally despondent. I have no experience with the CZ50/70.
 
Some negative feedback

It pains me, but I'll provide some negative feedback on the two guns with which I'm familiar -- the Kimber and the H&K. I regret having sold my PSP, which was an incredibly accurate and pointable pistol, but here are some of the reasons: 1) the heat build-up that occured while shooting made the trigger and trigger guard too hot to touch. I shot my CCW qualifier (50 rds./perfect score) with the PSP, and it was quite painful towards the end. 2) The balance of weight in the grip, which makes the gun so pointable, also makes it a little awkward for IWB carry, my prefered mode. Some people don't experience this problem, but for me it became an issue.

I still have a Kimber Compact CDP (not the Ultra), and one thing that finally drove me crazy was the sharp checkering on the mainspring housing. I've hunted around for a serrated housing like Les Baers use, but haven't located one yet for the Officer's size frame. As an interim measure, I took a file and ground the points down. Otherwise, it has been an excellent carry gun.

Mark
jmb@sarpedon.com

See pics of my guns and articles at http://www.sarpedon.com
 
Here is a collection of P7 complaints I put together.

1. The gun gets uncomfortably hot after 60 (or so) rapid shots. More of a training problem than a "real world" consideration.

2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.

3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.

4. The gun's design is such that it gets dirty quickly when shot.

5. The gun malfunctions when not maintained properly. While this is true of all guns, the P7 seems to be more sensitive than most modern autos. The solution is to keep the gas cylinder clean.

6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released. This is more of an issue with SEAL wannabes than real people. The theory is that the noise will alert the bad guys to your presence. Easily overcome with technique anyway (press in cocking latch at top of cocking lever while releasing your grip). With this technique the gun is almost silent and certainly quieter than any SIG or USP with decocking lever.

7. Low capacity. Except in now unavailable M13 (LEO only) and M10 (discontinued for ugliness), capacity is limited to 9 rounds (with one in chamber).

8. Grip screws come loose too easily. Use lock-tite.

9. Can't use lead bullets (see cleanliness issues above).

10. Slide lock button too small for some.

11. Magazine release on M8/M13 too sensitive to careless holstering (accidental magazine ejection). PSP model doesn't suffer from this (Euro-magazine catch).

12. During an emergency a user might accidentally squeeze the trigger while squeezing the cocking lever. I personally think this isn't a problem. The P7 was designed with a fair amount of take-up in the trigger so the gun is tolerant of some sloppiness. The moral of the story is to keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to kill something. It should also be noted that your trigger finger is relatively independent of your other fingers. I can't remember the physiological term, but the other three fingers usually act in unison while the index finger is only partially connected. Still, in an emergency anything is possible--practice proper form with all firearms!

13. For some, seriously ham-fisted users, the gun might be accidentally disassembled if the take down button is inadvertently pressed while the slide is being racked. This is extremely unlikely, however, it can be done with practice.

14. Disassembly not for mere mortals. A "detail strip"
can involve a lot of head/heart ache. The gun has a fair number of parts but the real problem is the gun's unorthodox design [Expert reassembly tip, use grease to hold in the mag release spring--otherwise you will go mad trying to hold everything together while attempting to drive in the assembly pin]. An armorer at HK told me that they regularly have to reassemble guns for owners who let curiosity get the better of them. Fortunately, there is really no reason to strip it down beyond a "field strip." Just spray in some gun oil and wipe.

15. Possible difficulty depressing cocking lever with weak or injured hands. My father has weakness in his right hand related to a stroke he had a few years ago. For a while he was unable to cock my M8. On the other hand, once the lever is squeezed it only takes about a pound and a half to keep it cocked.

GHB
 
The CZ-50/70 is a nice little gun, loosely based on the Walther PP design.

The problems with these guns, when they occur, tend to be magazine related. Find good mags and you'll likely find them to be trouble free. (Check http://www.MAKAROV.COM for more info.)

Mine easily outshoots a friends Walther PPK, and for about 1/4 of the price...
 
I liked the concept of the H&K P7M8 when it first came out. After trying it out, I rejected it for just the same reasons that Greg Belllists in his post. If you want a good 9mm I would recommend looking at the SIG-Sauer 9mms.
 
Replacement spring/guide rod sets on the Kimber Ultra series are about $40 or so. The little guide rods do break once in a while and nobody but Kimber seems to have them. I understand Wolf makes replacement spring sets, but then you have to dissassembled the guide rods and once all put back together, people have trouble keeping them together. Loctite does not seem to keep the guide rod screwed in to the base plate. If you shoot a lot, you will have some expense with this issue.

Aluminum frames have a very finite life if you are shooting full load ammo. The Ultras have aluminum frames
 
In the four years I've owned guns, I have fired at most 2,000 rounds through my most heavily-used centerfire handgun. What sort of frame life can I expect assuming mostly 230gr S&B ball being used?
 
I have a Kimber Ultra. Have only had it for a few months, so I don't have extensive experience with it. The only negative so far is that it is not as accurate as a full-size 1911, particularly past about 10 yards. But that was to be expected.

If you get one, highly recommend the Milt Sparks Summer Special II IWB holster, available from Brownells.
 
I bought an Ultra Carry when they first came out. It was likely the most accurate gun I've owned right out of the box. I wound up getting rid of it. For one thing, no matter what mag I tried in this pistol, the slide still would not lock back on a consistent basis after the last shot was fired. I tried about five different mags, including Wilsons. I sent it back to the factory twice, they replaced the slide stop and sent it back. Didn't help. Now, I know this malfunction wasn't likely to get me killed, but I'm funny about wanting things to work the way they are designed to work. ( Six hundred dollar handguns being one of them)Another part broke at one point, I'm sorry, I don't remember what it was called, however the factory sent another one and that was ok after that. Thing is, I still find Kimbers attractive, (I'm the guy that posts about having had four of them and having chronic problems with three.), so now and then I start thinking I want to give them another chance. When I do, I'm usually in a gun shop looking at them, and I ask to handle it, I'm always able to replicate the slide not locking back, and I come to my senses and ask to see something else. Good luck and good shooting to you. Isn't shopping for a new pistol a real gas? :)
Daddycat
 
Have manufactured custom loads for three Kimber Ultra Elites (left in my possession for testing).

Two shot to point-of-aim with both 185g and 230g JHP's. Groups were exceptional, with under 2" common. Velocities ranged from 650-780fps.
Third one shot low, but groups were still excellent, and this one functioned down to under 600fps before experiencing ejection trouble.

If I were to EVER consider carrying a dinky wee little Major-power pistol I'd give these first crack.
 
I had a CZ50 for a while but sold it. As Walt said, the magazines were a problem. I believe the springs were worn out on the two mags that came with my pistol as I could only load three or four rounds in order to avoid a jam. The double action pull was unbelievably heavy. I had to jerk the trigger to get the pistol to fire. The single action pull wasn't too bad. For an inexpensive pistol to play with at the range I would recommend it but I sure would not have used it for self defense. Now with new mags or new springs that might be a different story.
 
3-gun choice

1. Kimber...Everyone that I know that had one
sold it or stored it in their gun safe,
mag problems yes, needs a good de-horning
because of all the sharp edges, claim it is a
"wanna-be" 1911 and not as accurate as alot of
other 1911 options. "all hat and no cowboy"
applies here. I have no personal experience
with this pistol myself, just what I have heard
from Kimber owners...


2. CZ50/70...Mag and spring problems are common
complaints, but for the most part aside from it
being a "commie gun" (friends words, not mine)
with a little gunsmithing It can be an accurate
little pistol and a fun range shooter...self
defense...forget it. I have had no personal
experience with this gun, again, only what people
who own/owned them tell me...All the people I know
who have one still love it despite its flaws..


3. HK P7, Greg Bell's 15 point negative list is
pretty accurate.
Of the 3 guns listed I own the P7 and the one thing
I really HATE about it is that when I am shooting
it at the range, I can't tell after a string of
5 shots If they all went through the same hole or
If I hit the paper with 1 shot and missed the paper
completely with the other 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The P7 is one of the most accurate pistols ever
and even when I am having a very bad day at the
range I still shoot this little beast better than
most pistols on my best day....yes the P7 is that
good..
Another bad thing about the P7 is that once you
own/shoot one for awhile you will feel the need
to purchase several more...

People who are die-hard fans of (fill in the blank)
pistols are always suprised at how much they enjoy
shooting the P7

Whew...that said,
My advice for anyone in this situation is to
shoot all 3 and buy the one that fits you and
you shoot the best...
Danke
 
The lack of accuracy regarding the little Kimbers is due to shooter error. Not the gun. The small 1911's like the Ultra have a short sight radius and greater felt recoil which leads to flinching and poor trigger control if you are not used to it. As far as accuracy, it doesn't matter what the barrel length is as long as it can stabilize the bullet. Once stabilized, all you get with a longer barrel is more velocity from the bullet and a longer sight radius.
 
I wonder about "inherent accuracy"...I've fired some ergonomic full-size guns that were good only for 3" 21ft (a certain SW4506 comes to mind). The compact K9imber uses different lock-up for the regular 1911, could that account for the poor accuacy?
 
Oleg Volk - Was this from a Ransom rest, sandbags, or some other pistol rest? Unless you can eliminate shooter error, it's difficult to determine what accuracy the pistol is capable of. Then you have to start looking at specific types of ammo. If that S&W is still getting 3" at 21 feet I would take it to a good gunsmith to see what's wrong with it.

Take a lesson from a good handgun shooting instructor to determine how you grip the gun, stance, trigger control, follow through, the mental aspects of shooting, etc, etc. You will be amazed to learn that accuracy has much more to do with the shooter than any particular gun or the way it locks up.
 
Kimbers are "usually" good pistols, but from the number of malfunctions that have to be cleared at local IDPA matches, there's a signficant percentage of lemons; probably in the low double digits. A local 'smith says that the MIM parts are generally OK, but those who shoot A LOT will see them wear out faster than regular steel parts.

The H&K P7's usually have a nice trigger pull. Reliability after extended use is an issue, as others have pointed out. I recall reading that some police department had issued these, and found out they didn't like Silvertip ammo; something about small shards coming off the aluminum bullet jackets and clogging the mechanism.
 
I have a stainless Ultra Carry. Practice with it, and it's very accurate.

I've put over 1400 rounds of S&B through it, and haven't noticed any wear.

I have had one big problem, though. The slide stop prematurely, just barely, creeps up and catches the slide with ammo still in the mag and holds the slide open. It happens about 1 - 2% of the time. This isn't acceptable for a carry gun, and it is not due to any operator error(limp wristing, etc.).

Kimber originally sent me out another slide stop months ago, and it was identical to the one that I had, so it didn't fix anything. A week or two ago, I called again and they sent me out another slide stop.

On this last slide stop, they rounded the outside corner of the slide stop, towards the rear of the gun, that is barely contacting the slide and keeping it open with rounds still in the mag.

I don't know if this will fix the problem, but I'll know as soon as my next case of ammo arrives sometime early next week.

I like shooting the gun. It's very accurate, and I'll start carrying it when it starts operating correctly. Funny thing, though, even with this problem, I have no intention of selling my Ultra Carry.
 
I can't recall who it was (NIJ maybe?), but they had nothing but problems with a smallish Kimber. Something like 40+ jams... I really wish I could tell you more. The Glocks they tested were perfect.

There was a pass/fail grading on weight, accuracy, reliability, size, round capacity, caliber, etc. The Rugers, Sigs, Glocks and I think the Berettas were all in good shape though. I'll see what I can find when I get home and have access to my bookmarks.

Ben
 
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