Looking for good arguments for a pro-gun society... difficult

The “normalization of extreme violence” is not new. As late as the civil war military battles were picnic destinations allowing one to sit in the hills and watch. Public executions, often gruesome, were once public spectacle. While you may be right regarding technological advancements nearly every revolution carried out by commoners was done at a major technological disadvantage.

It’s not new. Your strategy is likely a good survival strategy but you underlying commentary ignores at least some historical narrative
 
Who cares what part of the gun owning crowd go armed all the time, or whether it suits any demographic dreamed up, by anyone.
I was born in the UK, in 1935, lived 3 years in Sydney Australia, and 30 years in Toronto, Canada.

As a US Citizen, I carry always, I shoot well, taught that skill for 25 years.
Working on the Doors of Clubs in Liverpool England for 5 years, got into lots of fights.

Here is my view on your request, I could care less about why people think it's a good idea to go armed. Just so long as it is my right to carry my fully loaded Glock 19 every day! Sixteen rounds of 147g Ranger T!
Do I quiver in fear, as I go about my business? Why would I, I am armed.

Countries where you have not got that freedom? I have been there, ain't going back.
 
Here is my view on your request, I could care less about why people think it's a good idea to go armed. Just so long as it is my right to carry my fully loaded Glock 19 every day! Sixteen rounds of 147g Ranger T!
Do I quiver in fear, as I go about my business? Why would I, I am armed.

Countries where you have not got that freedom? I have been there, ain't going back.
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Lots of people go about their business everyday unarmed without quivering in fear. Me for one, its up to the individual i could carry a firearm if i wanted to i choose not to if others do that's up to them. A citizen having a right to carry a firearm is great, but that's a right few countries have but lots manage to have low crime and murder rates.

So now when we settled that, let me ask you if you can find some GOOD sources of research with the indications that a pro-gun society brings about a safer and just society.
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You will get plenty of opinions but little good independent sources / evidence showing that a pro gun society is a safer society. That doesn't mean its not, it depends who you ask. You could post on a anti gun forum asking the opposite ( sources of research with the indications that a pro-gun society brings about a less safe and just society ) and get plenty of opposite views and opinions you will have to make your own mind up.
 
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manta we can argue all day about your views on how unsafe it is to live in the USA and the superiority of the UK model, but that is not the topic of this thread.

My having the ability and right to defend against a violent attack does not make the threat of violence more likely. It simply increases the chance of me and mine surviving a lethal attack. This notion that law abiding citizens with guns is part of the prevailing violence that plagues the US and most everywhere else in the world is nonsense. It is far easier to blame guns and focus on "gun control" laws than address the causal problems that will not go away by taking my guns.

And for the record manta I don't live in fear. I live in a statistically very safe location. I carry a gun every day because as OldMarksman mentioned in another thread 'it is not the odds, but the stakes.'
 
manta we can argue all day about your views on how unsafe it is to live in the USA and the superiority of the UK model, but that is not the topic of this thread.

My having the ability and right to defend against a violent attack does not make the threat of violence more likely. It simply increases the chance of me and mine surviving a lethal attack. This notion that law abiding citizens with guns is part of the prevailing violence that plagues the US and most everywhere else in the world is nonsense. It is far easier to blame guns and focus on "gun control" laws than address the causal problems that will not go away by taking my guns.
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Its as well i never disagreed with anything you posted above then, we agree. As i said its up to the individual you chose to carry a firearm i don't, and don't feel the need to, like i would guess the majority of Americans.

As for of topic it was inserted in post 10 and not by me.
 
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Manta.
As a scouser, I never go to the North, Belfast is a No-No for me. Dublin always.
No, still fresh IRA Slogans on the Gable ends. The troubles are still just below the surface.
Or so I have been told.
We here in Florida can obtain a CCW license, quite easy, the crimes committed, enough reason to take away one of those Licenses, are few and far between.
I first heard that statement "An armed society, is a polite society" was from a transplanted South African in Toronto, many years ago.
I believe it.
 
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Manta.
As a scouser, I never go to the North, Belfast is a No-No for me. Dublin always.
No, still fresh IRA Slogans on the Gable ends. The troubles are still just below the surface.
Or so I have been told.
We here in Florida can obtain a CCW license, quite easy, the crimes committed, enough reason to take away one of those Licenses, are few and far between.
I first heard that statement "An armed society, is a polite society" was from a transplanted South African in Toronto, many years ago.
I believe it.
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My work would take me to all areas of Belfast with no problems. That's work, but like i would say most city's there are places / areas you would avoid going for a drink etc.

As for a armed society is a polite society i don't buy that, i am sure there are plenty of polite unarmed Americans.
 
I will give it a read. I don't think lots of guns in a country makes much difference to crime or murder rates one way or the other. It will make a difference to what is used to murder people, murders with firearms will be higher but the overall murder figure per year will remain similar.
 
Ordinary_guy said:
Hi there!
Not a troll... and not a flame bait.
So now when we settled that, let me ask you if you can find some GOOD sources of research with the indications that a pro-gun society brings about a safer and just society. I am thinking in terms of long term, both in the mindset of giving the citizen the leverage against the state, and also generally as self-defence against the "bad guys".
Why am I looking for this? Well, since I don't live in the US, and have an interest in these matters, I have noticed that it's VERY easy to find solid arguments AGAINST easy access to guns, but not so much against gun control. When I google stuff, the anti gun attitudes seems to be all over the place.

To be specific I would love to see some info regarding an international outlook, not just US-specific and your famous second amendment, because that is not relevant for most citizens around the world.

Bring it on, and thanks in advance. Please add sources in your answers so I can research it myself afterwards. And if you have any questions to me as well I will do my best to answer.

/Just an ordinary guy
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I think you are operating from the wrong direction. You shouldn't try and prove why guns are good. You should let those who claim guns are bad actually prove how they are bad. At the starting point, you should insist on precise definitions and how gun control "x" policy will create "y" result.
 
Thanks for the link Pax. I will have to spend a little time examining his data, but it does support my position that it is not guns that are the problem here or abroad.
 
As for a armed society is a polite society i don't buy that, i am sure there are plenty of polite unarmed Americans.
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Manta we can agree on this!

Zukiphile's big Greek friend's statement does show that in an armed society impolite behavior that crosses the line may have serious consequences. The old adage that Colt made all men equal comes to mind.:)
 
"You shouldn't try and prove why guns are good"

Tools aren't bad or good, just tools.
But since I feel that there is a very big movement against guns in general, and at least I have had much difficulty in finding pro arguments I wanted some help.
It can be beneficial when discussing with other people sometimes.
I can always say "I think so" and argue well, but if there actually existed some objective (little naive me... chuckles...) studies that shows some heavy arguments pro guns, it could help.
But since most of you don't live in Europe, I guess you don't meet people that look at you (a person that likes to shoot with guns competitively) like a gun freak. And the attitude would be totally horrendous if the discussion went towards letting people have guns like allowed from your 2nd amendment. ;-) It's actually on the level that many people would like to contact the authorities to get your children from you (not kidding). Let it sink in...
 
Zukiphile's big Greek friend's statement does show that in an armed society impolite behavior that crosses the line may have serious consequences.
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He was genuinely shocked that any american might possess a firearm, because he assumed that getting drunk, breaking noses, splitting lips, etc. was something like good clean fun. Realizing that he now lived in a place where he didn't have the ability to physically dominate nearly anyone he would meet was jarring.

But then the wheels began turning. "So if I bump into someone accidentally he will just shoot me?" It doesn't really work that way because no one wants to go to prison for that, and your rethinking your aggressiveness translates to others who also don't want to solve a trivial problem with a gun.

He was a smart lad then, and he is still a good friend, but at 19 he had the worldview of a soccer hooligan.

That there are plenty of polite but unarmed americans misses the point of the aphorism that an armed society is a polite society. The ethic that one should measure his actions so as to not deserve harm depends on harm to a perpetrator being a real possibility. That ethic is missing in a soccer riot.
 
But since most of you don't live in Europe, I guess you don't meet people that look at you (a person that likes to shoot with guns competitively) like a gun freak. And the attitude would be totally horrendous if the discussion went towards letting people have guns like allowed from your 2nd amendment. ;-) It's actually on the level that many people would like to contact the authorities to get your children from you (not kidding). Let it sink in...
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I live in the European union, hopefully not for much longer. I am not sure what part you live in but i do not recognise some of what you describe above, a lot depends on what country or region you live in some are more gun friendly than others. Like some states in America are more gun friendly than others, its a mistake to talk about Europe or America as if attitudes or laws are all the same.
 
The ethic that one should measure his actions so as to not deserve harm depends on harm to a perpetrator being a real possibility. That ethic is missing in a soccer riot.
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Amen!
 
That there are plenty of polite but unarmed americans misses the point of the aphorism that an armed society is a polite society. The ethic that one should measure his actions so as to not deserve harm depends on harm to a perpetrator being a real possibility. That ethic is missing in a soccer riot.
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My and most people i know have a ethic to be polite. The above harm etc doesn't come into it, maybe its the way i was brought up. PS There are plenty of heavily armed societies that are anything but polite.
 
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manta said:
My and most people i know have a ethic to be polite. The above harm etc doesn't come into it, maybe its the way i was brought up. PS There are plenty of heavily armed societies that are anything but polite.
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Your personal experience is probative if you know everyone in both countries. I could draw conclusions about the irish from a cousin who was visiting Ireland and was killed along with some of his family, but that would be careless.

You assert that the possibility of harm to a perpetrator "doesn't come into it", yet if people act rationally, they will assess the risk of an act. Why would people who rape, rob or assault be different?

Rape, robbery and assault rates appear to be about double in the UK as compared to the US. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Robbery-victims These are both relatively prosperous places with a common legal tradition. One notable difference is in the rates of arms ownership.

That doesn't make the US problem free. We have some terribly dangerous cities. Chicago murder rates are a matter of frequent news comment. Chicago also has demonstrated somethng less than good faith in allowing people to carry arms legally.


I wonder whether you think citation to the sorts of crime that happen face to face and involve use of force is a a slight to the English, Irish and Scottish. It isn't. The same point was made in the Champpenal report about canadian populations. Many citizens of the US can pass for canadians and vice versa. The point is to isolate the variable of possession and legally protected use inso far as that is possible.
 
I have yet to see any evidence that guns in the hands of private citizens has a positive effect on violent crime over all.

The arguments for general gun ownership tend to be about individual action rather than social benefits.
 
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