looking for evidence of home invasions that look like police no-knocks

S

springmom

New member
Two threads have been recently shut down over on T&T regarding "no-knocks" and how to tell that apart from home invaders. Capt. Charlie gave some good general answers, but there was still quite a lot of interest in the topic. Since the threads there were closed, I'm taking his suggestion and bopping over here to re-open it.

My question: do any of you have any news items that document a home invasion that was done by criminals but done in such a way as to look like a "no-knock"? I ask because that was the crux of the issue in the previous threads, and many of us were left with a sense of uneasiness that we just flat can't be certain that the guy who yells "POLICE" in the middle of the night among the breaking glass and busted doors is, indeed, police and not just the local gang out for a robbery.

So: if you have actual documentation of such an event, please post? We all know very well that warrants are sometimes served at the wrong address (K&A *or* no-knocks) and we all know that BG's are using home invasion as a robbery tactic more and more. What we don't know, although we fear, is how often is it the BG who dresses like/sounds like/acts like a police officer in order to get in and rob and kill.

Thanks, all.

Springmom
 
I unfortunately don't have any clippings or links at this time, but I KNOW I have read about SEVERAL of them in south Florida within the last couple of years.


It is a reality. That cannot be denied.

Related to that, I have read of numerous fake-cop traffic stops in which people have been robbed.

And apart from that, I have read of fake cops shaking down drug dealers and/or illegal immigrants in south Florida as well -- those within the last few months.

I have not made a practice of clipping the articles, though.

You might want to check whatever archives are available at [url="http://www.palmbeachpost.com]The Palm Beach Post[/url]



-azurefly
 
There was a crew working El Cajon, CA a couple of years back that posed as DEA agents. They'd raid a drug house, handcuff everybody, take all of their drugs, guns, and cash as "evidence" and disappear.

Surprise, surprise, none of the "victims" called the cops.

Dispatcher: "9-11, what is your emergency?

Dealer: "Hey, these guys dressed up as cops just came in and stole all of our dope!!!"

Dispatcher: "What is your address..."

Right.

--Shannon
 
So what gives these "bounty hunters" the legal right to capture anybody? Are they officers of the court? Are they part of law enforcement? If the 4th Amendment protects against unlawful search and seizure (a big if after the recent ruling regarding the exclusionary rule) what exactly protects against these Rambos-for-hire? :barf:

They're ten times scarier than a DEA raid at the wrong address. Police officers have procedures, ethics, and somebody they answer to. These guys don't necessarily appear to have any of the above....:eek:

Springmom
 
So what gives these "bounty hunters" the legal right to capture anybody? Are they officers of the court? Are they part of law enforcement?
Click to expand...

I wondered about those things myself a long time ago after one of the TV stations aired a show specifically about what bounty hunters do and how they work.

Essentially, bounty hunters have no more "legal" authority than would you if you decided to make a "citizens's arrest".

http://ask.yahoo.com/20041118.html

I sort of see it like I do our own situations where we have the "right to carry".

For those of us who aren't into imagining ourselves in a "High Noon" gunfight due to our getting our permits to carry, we have come to understand that the right to carry gives us NO more legal rights than we already had before we obtained our CCW permit.
The ONLY difference is that we can now carry a lethal means of self defense, but we have NO more right to USE it in the same sense that before we had our CCW permit we could have used a "legal" knife to defend ourselves.
If we had the legal right to defend ourselves before we got our CCW permits, then we retain that right after we got our permits, but we pick up no additional rights of any kind.

So when it comes to bounty hunters, they have no right at all to break down doors, and if they do, then they are open to all sorts of legal problems and possibly even being killed themselves by the home's occupant.
I'd like to think that bona-fide bounty hunters understand these things and act responsibly just as (most of us) CCW carriers do with regard to our new found means of self defense.
But God help the bounty hunter who mixes up an address and enters my home by force because not only will he very possibly not survive, but the "law" will NOT be in his favor.

Back to the no-knock purpose of the thread; I also have no specific links for BG's entering homes in an invasion posing as police, but I very specifically know that I have read several accounts of that happening.

I don't likely have too much else to offer on this subject since I think I've said all I could in the other threads that strayed, but some things I'd like to add are some points that I very much hope that all of the LE people reading these threads come away with a very real understanding that:

1. You LE's need to know that in the middle of the night, honest people being woken up suddenly are not going to be able to determine who is breaking in the door, especially since we have done nothing illegal that would warrant it.
Therefore, you need to know that if you make the mistake of a wrong address or an address that is improperly identified as a "bad house", then you are very likely going to end up killing innocent people; people the same as your parents or brothers or sisters or children.
That is GOING to happen because just as we are going to have to assume that you are an attacker, then simply because you think you are making a "proper" entry into a "bad house", then YOU are going to be assuming that anyone inside is a bad guy worthy of your killing at the slightest "wrong" move.

2. Mistakes HAVE been made, therefore, see item #1.

3. Because of the consequences of a raid on a wrong address or one that was improperly identified as a "bad house" when it wasn't, no-knocks should be carried out ONLY in the event that someones life inside the home is in danger (kidnappings, for example). Is this not something to bring up with your supervisors before knocking down doors?

4. Know that the 99% of us are on "your" side, and we have nothing against enforcing the ethical and moral laws of our society. It is therefore more important than ever that you have taken all precautions to the point of absurdity before knocking down doors. MAKE SURE that there is absolutely no other option before you enter a home by force.

Basically, I'm just hoping that LE's are immensely aware of the consequences of no-knock entries WHEN (not "if") a mistake is made.

Lastly, for those who pooh-pooh the idea of a mistaken no-knock on their own home by saying that the odds are 1 in a bazillion, I would ask you why you have that shotgun or .45 tucked away next to your bed?
Evidently, you DO believe that a home invasion could take place or you wouldn't be so prepared. So since there's a 1 in a bazillion chance that YOUR door comes crashing down as a result of POLICE action, do you think you would have the presence of mind to know the difference when BG's have also been known to shout "Police!" during a home invasion? Since the chance of a POLICE no-knock being done on your home is a bazillion to one, wouldn't it be prudent of you to ASSUME that the people entering your home are most definitely bad guys and NOT the bazillion to one chance of them being police?
I hope it's clear that I'm not advocating shooting at police, but in the situation as described, you may not have a clear way of knowing that it IS police and will very likely take a defensive stand that will get you killed.

In the last 10 to 15 years, there have been 3 different (rent) homes on the same block I live in that ended up being crack houses. One of them was 4 houses down from mine, and ironically, it was originally built by the same builder who built my house and is the exact same floor plan and looks similar from the front.
I wasn't the only one in the immediate block who called police to report the "excessive" activity at that house, and I recall explaining to the officer on the phone to "please be sure you have the right address".

So sure, I'm happy with the bazillion to one odds, but people HAVE won the lottery. And since I've never been one to have that kind of luck, my luck ends up going in the other direction so I figure I AM a prime candidate for a bazillion to one mistake.
That's why I asked the question before, but in the end, I come away with no real answers.

Carter
 
Run your search in the Kansas City, Kansas and Wyandotte County, Kansas areas over the last 5 years. There were several criminal groups that were using Police uniforms and equipment to break into houses and such.

There was even news stories on this problem.
 
Quite a dilemma, isn't it?

Simple solution. Stop writing laws that dictate what YOU want your neighbor to do or not do that DOESN'T AFFECT YOU.

Then every crime will have a victim. Not a conjured-up-in-legalese victim, but a real, live, human victim.

There will then be ample evidence of every crime, and no need to suddenly and urgently bust down someone's door to get evidence of a crime you think has happened.

Till then, enjoy the lottery.
 
Bounty hunters work for bail bonds people and do have powers under certain leagal articles.
They can arrest you,kick in your door and will shoot you if you shoot first.
Most of the time they notify and work with local law enforcement and are very good at what they do.



I have been following the posts here for awhile now and I am seeing a few very paranoid people. Do you hear about something and worry it's going to happen to you? I'm just wondering what provokes people to be constantly armed even at home? Or to worry and try to prepare for a no knock?
It's totally silly and I'm sure you have much better things to do.
If it's going to happen,it will. You can't prepare for a no knock unless you sit up armed 24hrs a day watching your door. If it does happen it's going to be a surprise and even if waiting for it,you won't be prepared fully(phsychologically.)
I live in a "bad" labeled area,have for years and have no problems. I have a CHL but don't usually carry.Especially at home. You gotta remember these people look for scared paranoid people to pick on. Like a certain mentioned event at a hospital parking garage. The guy may have wanted a cigarette of was just walking your way. But now you're scared and armed and dangerous. These are the mentalitys that have been in court for bad shootings.
I'm not trying to start anything but I think when I read some of these posts just how foolish it is. Get a life and something else to do besides worry about stuff like this all the time. Be aware,yes,but not paranoid.
 
the word paranoid is beginning to annoy me

Do you hear about something and worry it's going to happen to you? I'm just wondering what provokes people to be constantly armed even at home? Or to worry and try to prepare for a no knock?
It's totally silly and I'm sure you have much better things to do.
Click to expand...

Really? This is rather amazing, given that you and I live in the same general quadrant of Harris County. The rising crime rate was the reason I got my CHL in the first place. As I've said any number of times here on TFL, the body count on the morning news takes up ten minutes many days. It's obscene. It's pathetic. And it's where we live.

When the crime of this city hits you and yours, we'll talk.

But now you're scared and armed and dangerous. These are the mentalitys that have been in court for bad shootings.
I'm not trying to start anything but I think when I read some of these posts just how foolish it is. Get a life and something else to do besides worry about stuff like this all the time. Be aware,yes,but not paranoid.
Click to expand...

I am toning this down, at Bud's wise suggestion. But I will say this: I think it's amazing that if we carry "just because we can" then we're often condemned as vigilantes or weirdos or whatever, and if we carry because we have been crime victims and live in the midst of crime, we're paranoid. Want to think about that little oddity?

I will carry because I can. I will carry because I believe I should.

Springmom
 
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I have been following the posts here for awhile now and I am seeing a few very paranoid people. Do you hear about something and worry it's going to happen to you? I'm just wondering what provokes people to be constantly armed even at home? Or to worry and try to prepare for a no knock?
It's totally silly and I'm sure you have much better things to do.

Maybe there are more people than you think that have had real life experiance or know somebody close to them that has been the victim of the wrong arm of the law. I know of a few people myself.
 
... get a life ...
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It's totally silly ...
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Hold on a minute. There's a situational dynamic at work here and also a perceptual one. If you know you will never need to defend yourself against an aggressor on the street, then fine. If that were the case and I knew that, I'd proceed to finish out my days in condition white. But since I don't know that, I subsequently feel the need to be prepared for when or if it ever happens. My decision, my choice. Your decision, your choice. You can laugh your head off at my paranoia or I can shed a tear at your funeral. Those are the choices, figuratively, that we see here.

Do you not understand the meaning of "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"? Since we don't know if and when we'll need to be armed, but know that it is possible, for the protection of ourselves and our loved ones, some of us choose to spend the time and energy to be the one that is prepared. It is a choice. It requires diligence and dedication. And yes, one can become completely paranoid about it, but where is that line?

That you may have lived in a known "bad area" for the last so many years and so far nothing bad has happened, guarantees nothing about your safety or probability of harm tomorrow. Every time you roll the dice (read: walk out the door), the probability of a given result starts anew.

I know you were stating your opinions, both of you, but be aware that the last time a person got assaulted in your town or city, the victim probably was surprised. Think about it. He/she probably had lived in that area or passed through that area for years and nothing had happened, so they saw no reason to be paranoid. So they weren't just not paranoid, they were probably unaware of their surroundings, i.e., in condition white.

No offense intended by this long post, but I was struck by the non-chalance of your posts compared to the anxiety and studied concerns in others.

They just want answers. The best answer I can give them is, "There ain't no easy answers". You have to go with your gut sometimes. You also have to make tradeoffs and constantly make decisions, whether you know it or not . It's a lot of effort to stay in yellow and orange. Tiring. You make errors in judgement. Then what good are you to your loved ones and yourself? Find that level of awarenes you can maintain. Stay there. If you can't maintain, lower it a little. Know when to elevate and when to relax. Everyone is different. Don't overload and try to stay in a high state of alert all the time. Very few can do it effectively.
 
During hurricane season here in Houston, I like to keep several rolls of duct tape on hand in the unlikely event that we get high winds so I can tape up the windows to prevent flying glass. Year after year, I haven't had to use the duct tape.
Am I paranoid about a hurricane going over my house?... or am I prepared?

I don't recall having a flat on my truck since I bought it almost 10 years ago. Yet, checking to make sure my spare tire is inflated is part of normal maintenance for me.
Am I paranoid about getting a flat?... or am I prepared?

At work, there are some electrical modules that in 12 years of owning a particular machine, I have NEVER had to replace. Yet, I keep 2 extra modules on hand because if the machine goes down, I'm into some serious financial losses from lost production time.
Am I paranoid for keeping spare parts around that I've never needed?... or am I prepared?

In the Houston area, crime is up considerably in the last year, and even though the odds of me or my wife being assaulted is no worse than the odds of my needing to duct tape my windows, or change a flat on my truck, or need a replacement module for a machine, I carry a defensive pistol and so does my wife.
Am I paranoid?... or am I prepared?

Why is it that we all take precautions against events that are very unlikely to happen and we proudly declare ourselves to be "prepared", yet, when people take a precaution to protect themselves (our lives being considerably more important than any mechanical inconvenience), it's considered to be paranoia rather than preparedness?

Somebody explain that to me.

Carter
 
Good posts by Springmom, Bud & Carter. :cool:

Now to nudge us back on-topic...

Here in the S.F. Bay Area, we're seeing several crimes by people dressed as utility workers and, in one case, a fake cop on the street. All in the last few days.
 
Maybe there are more people than you think that have had real life experiance or know somebody close to them that has been the victim of the wrong arm of the law. I know of a few people myself.
Click to expand...

That's more than a maybe.
 
several crimes by people dressed as utility workers
Click to expand...

We've had a few instances of this in the past few months. They've been encouraging people to ask for ID and even to call into the utility co to verify that they've dispatched a worker to your address and they will even give you a physical description of the particular worker.

In this day & age of official this & that and eminent domain...card them suckers! The real workers will not take offense and it doesn't matter anyway what they think. Answer the door with a gun. Paranoid? Maybe, but not a statistic.
 
Im not a criminal and have nothing to hide.... and maybe Im off track, but if you yell police and kick my door in, im still going to lock and load.........until Im sure you are in fact the real deal.
 
utility workers

I wouldn't let any one claiming to be a utility into my house unless I'm sure they are bona fide ie I called the company for service. If they came out of the blue I would be on the horn with the company and then probably the cops. If it turned out they were bg's they would be looking down the angry end of a .45.
 
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