Long time shooter, first time on a reload bench.

L

laymenshooter

Inactive
I've set up my first reload bench, a nice Lee challenger. I was doing measurements of factory made ammo, and found discrepancies with the Lee 2nd edition manual. Any thoughts on this, or am I putting too much thought into this?
 
If you're talking about over all length (OAL) the reloading manuals are a guide and not set in stone. You have to make sure they fit and feed from a magazine, and then you want them to pass the 'plunk' test in your particular firearm.
 
Any thoughts on this, or am I putting too much thought into this?
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You are putting too much thought into it. First thing you need to realize is that Factory ammo has nothing to do with reloading. You can not use the same powder they use (it's not out there on the shelves.) Second thing is all you can do is to try to duplicate the speed (fps) that there loads produce but you will need a Chrono for that. Third thing is that the publish data in the reloading manuals have all been tested and are your best bet using the components available to the reloader.

Chasing after duplicating factory loads, is an expensive futile task and should be avoided at all costs.

Develop your own load information for your own guns and don't worry about what one or another factory may produce. In many cases what the factories produce will be much inferior to what you can obtain on your own.

Start low or at the mid point of any load data from the manuals and work up from there using the manuals SUGGESTED OAL.


Good luck and stay safe.
Jim
 
Example SAAMI maximum cartridge dimensions:
http://http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/45%20Automatic.pdf

This gives you maximum cartridge dimensions. But that doesn't mean your reloads have to be this length for example. They can be shorter and likely will need to be in order to reliably chamber. It all depends on what bullet type you are using, RN, HP, semi-wadcutter etc. Each different bullet has a different profile. Google the "plunk test" and much will be made clear.
 
I've set up my first reload bench, a nice Lee challenger. I was doing measurements of factory made ammo, and found discrepancies with the Lee 2nd edition manual. Any thoughts on this, or am I putting too much thought into this?
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Sounds to me that you need to READ that Lee manual - ALL the text in it before the load data. If you actually do that, you will understand.

If you start trying to reload before you do that, you are a danger to yourself and all around you.
 
Found discrepancies
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I am the fan of reloaders saving a few new, factory, over the counter ammo for reference. That is because I am also the fan of measuring before and again after.

Then there must be rational. It is possible your reloads will not allow the bolt to close. If you saved a few of your new factory over the counter ammo that would chamber before you started you would be able to compare your reloads with ammo that worked.

If you shoot all of your ammo you have no way to determine the effect the chamber had on the cases when fired.

F Guffey
 
All good advice....

You are just at the tip of the iceberg on "discrepancies" none of the manuals will use the same components, the same equipment, the same chonographs, the same shooting scenarios....elevation, temperature, air pressure.....not to mention the same shooters. Sounds like a horror story beginning? Not at all. Reloading is safe and fun.

Just pay attention to concept of starting low and working up.....using published data as a guide, and learn pressure signs, so you don't get in over your head.

DO use the same components as the published data to start with (same primers, same cases, same bullets.......sometimes that requires buying a few more manuals, components, and for sure downloading data from the manufacturer of the powder you plan to use to compare.

Then use some common sense and be careful......no distractions.
 
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Laymenshooter,

Welcome to the forum.

The SAAMI dimensions frequently confuse people. They follow the engineering practice of using tolerances that are unilateral. This is a common engineering practice applied when there is a critical limit at one end of a tolerance range, and exceeding the tolerance in the other direction has lesser consequences. Most of us are accustomed to the familiar plus and minus tolerance, where the value given is in the middle of the range. But engineers normally use that only when consequences from being too big or too small are roughly equal. For unilateral dimensions, you give the critical extreme value and then give the tolerance only in the direction away from it that has less consequence. For example, a shaft that's too small for a bearing will wear itself or the bearing fast, but a shaft that's too large cannot even be assembled into the bearing to try. Thus, too large is the critical dimension and shaft diameter is given as a maximum diameter with only a minus tolerance for proper operation. The opposite is true for the bearing sleeve it rides in, for which the dimension is the minimum diameter opening with a plus tolerance. It's just a system of alerting a person reading the drawing to what the actual critical limits are.

A cartridge that is too big won't fit in a chamber at all, so most SAAMI cartridge dimensions are given as the maximum dimension with a minus tolerance. The chamber is the other way around, with most given dimensions being minimums with a plus tolerance. The load manuals showing cartridge dimensions usually copy those maximum numbers given by SAAMI. One exception can be the total case length. This is sometimes given the way SAAMI does it, but sometimes is given as a "trim-to" length, half way between the SAAMI maximum and minimum.

Most manufacturers set their case dimensions near the minimum value rather than the maximum value that the SAAMI drawings show. This is to insure easy feeding from a magazine and zero interference when closing the bolt (the SAAMI critical maximums allow for some brass compression in rimless bottleneck cartridges that occurs at the shoulder, expanding the sides of the case outward against the chamber walls). The manufacturers usually trim their cases to that middling trim-to length, but their high speed saws are a little less precise than some home trimmers.

Measuring the case shoulder distance from the head accurately requires a good quality headspace GO gauge for comparison. None of the tools marketed for the purpose gives precise absolute values. The RCBS Precision Mic comes closest, but the ones I have are still off by up to 0.002".
 
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That is a great explanation Unclenick, it does address why some of the specs on a factory round might be different than the spec, so long as the difference is on the "safe" side of the spec.

But you didn't hit on one point important to the reloader, which is simply this: ammunition manufactured to the SAAMI spec is guaranteed to work properly in any weapon, and that feature is very important for any off-the-shelf factory ammo. But when reloading for a specific firearm, there are several dimensions that can quite properly be deliberately set different than the SAAMI spec.

The easiest example of this is the OAL. For example, in a rifle it is often desirable to seat a bullet longer than the SAAMI spec OAL to get it closer to the lands in that specific barrel (which might make that same round unusable in a different rifle), and in a revolver, the OAL is almost totally meaningless so long as the bullet nose does not protrude past the face of the cylinder.

Understanding the potential benefits and risks of making those reloading decisions is why no one should attempt to enter this hobby without doing the appropriate reading and/or training.
 
Just when you think you know all there is to know (the basics anyway) something changes. I had my 223 rebarreled and started the load work up process. I then found that NONE of the reloads would chamber. That was a big surprise. I had to borrow a factory round from a neighbor, and I found that the new Lapua brass had thick neck walls and the new rifle chamber was cut to tight match dimensions. With a bullet in the case neck, it was too thick to chamber. And it took me a whole morning to figure out the problem. Been reloading for 35 years, and this had me STUMPED.

So, even though I haven't shot a factory round in one of my rifles for 20 or 30 years, I needed a factory round for baseline measurements. Mr Guffy's suggestion is a very good one.
 
And that brings up a recent unexpected experience of mine.....

All factory ammunition is not the same either.

I had bought a new R25 Remington AR10 clone, which was supposedly a very accurate incarnation.....and it is.

With it I got 3 boxes of factory, a box each from Remington, Winchester, and Federal........The Federal would chamber, but would shoot only the first shot.....the next would not autofeed. The other two brands chambered and fed like water. With just physical examination, I could not tell the difference. Only a mic revealed that the Federal's body diameter just above the extraction groove was wider than the other two.

That would prove to play a factor in making successful reloads for it too. Because normal sizers size less in that area, the result is fatter brass near the cartridge base, than you have factory new. So a chamber on the skinny side of SAAMI, supposedly for accuracy, can cause an extra headache you have to accommodate for.
 
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Thanks much y'all for the advice and feed back. I've been beating my head harder with my lees book more then I did with my EMT book. It's one thing to be certified to save a life. Ammunition reloading is a totaly diffrent ball game, even with a few years with BP under my belt. Looking forward to what I'll be able to churn out on my bench.
 
The best thing I can recommend is a good case gauge and an accurate caliper.
Case gauge will have 'Go/NoGo' limits ground into it for quick visual reference.

'Head Space' is from the bolt face to centerline of the shoulder.
Once the case is resized and the shoulder is pushed back where it belongs,
The back end of the case gauge will let you know you are there without under/over working the case.

The case length (Neck Length) Is from the middle of the shoulder forward to the end of the neck.
The case gauge should show you min./max. on that specification also.

Case gauges save a TON of time since they are lightening quick.
The case gauge is also a 'Last Word' QC check when you have loaded rounds,
It will let you know if a roll/taper crimp compressed the case & flared the shoulder, a bullet snagged and flared the shoulder, ect.

Once you can prep cases that pass a case gauge, you are 90% there.
 
Jeep Hammer, I did not do extensive test, checking and measuring. But I am aware the 25/06, 270, 280, 30/06 all use a datum of 3/8” or .375” diameter hole. I also know all the cases listed above have different lengths between the shoulder neck juncture and the shoulder/case body juncture. Question; if the datum is half way between the two junctures how can the datum be half way between all 4.

I am the fan of the case gage; the case gage was designed to measure fired and sized cases. I am the only reloader that can measure the diameter of a case with a case gage. The problem is about time, there is just not enough time left to convince anyone it can be done.

I suggest a reloader get a good grip on the understanding and difference between a comparator and head space gage.

F. Guffey
 
That Lee manual uses Hodgdon data for the most part. Lee does no testing themselves.
Absolutely too much thought. Usually best to just use the max OAL given in the manual. IE. 3.340" for .30-06 works just fine with a 150 and a 168 or 180. Set up the seating die once and not every time you change bullets.
 
There is a lot of good information that was given to you.
All though since you sound like a beginner and we all had to start at some time.
It is very important to carefully read the complete manual and get another manual by Hodgdon or by what ever bullet manufactured you decide to use. Then when you get stumped you can look up the issue in the manuals.
Take your time you sound like you understand a lot about the process but you need more. That's why we come to this sight to learn more and you will along with the rest of us. Stick with it. It gets a lot easier.
 
Guffey,
Don't quite understand what you were trying to make a point on...

The point I was trying to make,
A case gauge gives you TWO checks, Go/NoGo gauges in one tool.
Pretty handy for the beginner and advanced reloader alike...

From Datum point to case head, Go/NoGo for head spacing,
From Datum point forward, neck length Go/NoGo.

Case over all length doesn't tell you if the shoulder got pushed back where it belongs.
The case length only gauges are cheaper, but they give you no idea if the case sides are pushed in enough or the shoulder is pushed back far enough (or too far).

A case gauge gets a case that will function SAFELY,
And will usually feed even in finicky autoloaders with tight chambers,
Giving you a REALLY good start on setting up dies so the cases fit/function in the rifle SAFELY.
Once the dies crank out brass that fits the gauge (and presumably the rifle) you can fine tune for your particular needs...
And the case gauge will show you the dies haven't moved when you occasionally check the cases (QC).

Pretty handy all the way around,
And I use mine for a 'Last Word' gauge for loaded rounds to make sure a die didn't come loose, a speck of crud or burr didn't creep into the process and push a shoulder back or a case neck didn't get deformed while seating the bullet or crimping.



If you don't recommend a gauge to double check a beginner's (or anyone's) work, what is the alternative?
I can't recommend a headspace gauge, mic the chamber, cast the chamber for beginners unless they seriously suspect an issue in the chamber.
The equipment is too expensive for a 'Single Use' and it can be complicated to use.

The case gauge tolerances are 'Safe' and help you produce consistent cases/ammunition for about $20, are infinitely reusable in more applications than a one time use (without buying extra parts) for beginners.
 
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Actually, the best case gauge you can conveniently obtain is one that's cut with the same reamer that chambered the rifle. A lot of folks have a gunsmith do that with an unused portion of the barrel blank. Blanks usually come with at least an extra inch to cut off each end, and if you are making a 24" tube from a 29" blank, well, you cut an inch off one end and four off the other to use as your gauge blank. An old barrel can be cut and re-reamed, too. The bother is grinding the steps. For my money, they aren't needed. The back is turned to match my chamber's headspace and the front is trimmed to case maximum. You can quickly tell by look and feel whether either is in too deeply. For self-loaders I'd ideally want a separate reamer for the gauge that was half a thousandth under my chamber reamer's diameters, but I haven't been able to justify the expense.

My Wilson .308 Gauge is fine for headspace and length, as you say, but when it comes to diameter, even the fired and not yet resized cases fired in my M1A will drop right into it, even though that gun doesn't have a minimum diameter chamber. It's not a problem when all your brass is fired in the same chamber, and is all resized before shooting it, but if you resize brass from a wide base military chamber, spring-back may leave it too large for a minimum chamber. The Wilson gauge wouldn't tell me that, whereas a gauge made from my chamber's reamer would tell me if the cartridge fit freely or not, regardless of its origin. If I were unsure of the fit, I'd probably have to clamp the gauge, insert the case, then stick the probe end of a swing probe dial indicator into the edge of the primer pocket and wiggle the case up and down to see how much play there is in it. Same with the mouth end. I don't know if that's what Mr. Guffey's technique is. There are usually a half a dozen different ways to skin this kind of cat.
 
OK,
Seems complicated for a 'Newbie' reloader.
A $20 case gauge (pick your brand) that produces cases that work is usually a good start,
And about all the case gauges will produce rounds that chamber...

If you don't want to use a case gauge, then don't.

Not everyone starts with a custom cut barrel, and a custom cut case gauge,
So you simply buy one that works,
For $20 each, you can afford a couple if the first one doesn't work for you.
 
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