long range rifle questions

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Thing is, most of these people at extreme ranges, well, what they do is they let off a first shot, see where it hits, and then adjust their scope accordingly. After a second shot, they do the same, until they eventually score a hit of some sort. That is how one of these extreme range shooters work. So one shot, one kill, is extremely rare. Most of the time, they more or less walk their shots into the animal by adjusting their sights.

Moreover, at such long range, they're going to need a spotting scope and a buddy in order to find the animal (or where it was) after it leaves in order to check for a hit. Even if it goes down on the spot, they aren't going to be able to see the animal the whole way there. They'll need a buddy on the other end of a CB radio (or walkie talkie if you prefer) to guide them to the animal. Lord knows sometimes when you shoot at 250 yards across a hollow it's not easy to find where the animal was when you shot it. Now multiply by four.

I have listed a myriad of reasons why I object to this practice. At such extreme ranges, one shot, one kill, or even one hit, one kill, isn't really possible for all situations.
 
Is it really harder to stalk an animal?
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no, but stalking to within a range that you can make a clean kill 100% is more ethical/humane and it's called HUNTING.
Sure it takes time to learn but I'm not sure that is harder. To me dedicating the time time and money to shoot at 1000 yards would be harder for me. Stalking is a skill like anything else, what the OP is doing is learning a new skill. You go out and try an shoot 1000 yards keep a 3 shot group under 10" consistently and tell me that it isn't a hard skill to learn!
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3 shot groups are sooo misleading.If you want to shoot at a animal you better be able to shoot 10 shot groups. and just because you can do somthing does not mean you should.
 
If someone can hit consistently at those distances, I see nothing unethical about it.
Calling others hunting techniques unethical is a slippery slope. Is using a modern weapon unethical?

The distance I can put three shots into a pie plate is my maximum hunting distance. I see nothing wrong with this. I would rather take an avid shooter who can hit with his rifle, as knowing his limits, than an armchair hunter that deems he knows what is best for the rest of us.
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Yesterday I made a shot at a target 1,440 meters away. Even with a well trained spotter it took me three pulls of the trigger to put steel on target. My target was a 10'x40' shipping container.

A 20 degree change in temperature will affect POI by roughly 1 MOA, as will 1500 feet in elevation change. That means if you zero your rifle at 200 feet at 80 degrees, but hunt at 2000 feet and 40 degrees your POI will be off over 3 MOA. Heck even changing shooting positions can shift your POI as your eye looks through the sighting device.

Even a light wind, around 5 mph, will turn your shot into a miss at 1,000. And the wind is usually faster higher up, and the maximum ordinate of the round will be over 10 feet above line of sight.

Long range sport hunting is unethical, that's all there is too it. Those that do have the skills know exactly how great the chance of error is that they will miss and cause undue suffering in the animal. If they just don't care about making a clean kill then that is UNETHICAL behavior.

Jimro
 
"Long range sport hunting is unethical, that's all there is too it. Those that do have the skills know exactly how great the chance of error is that they will miss and cause undue suffering in the animal. If they just don't care about making a clean kill then that is UNETHICAL behavior."


In YOUR OPINION and with the experience and skills YOU have.

C.
 
73-Captain,

You ever miss? Yup I thought so.

Arguing that it is ethical to take a shot at an animal at 1,000 just because you have the skills to hit a target at that range is just like trying to find out just exactly how fast your car can go.

Taking your car to a race track on a sunny day with dry pavement is one way to drive fast. That's like shooting your rifle at the range. Now imagine trying to go that fast at night in a thunderstorm on a winding mountain road. That is like shooting your rifle at an estimated distance without wind flags using dope gathered from a different elevation, humidity level, temperature, and shooting position.

It is just stupid to drive like an idiot with just yourself in the car. It is unethical to do so with a passenger. The deer or elk in your crosshairs is the same as a passenger, if you don't respect it enough to ensure a clean kill then you are unethical.

And if it isn't "unethical" to you it should be just plain stupid.

Jimro
 
The shot I am most proud of was taken at a Blacktail deer at 15 yards. I was shooting a Jerry Hill handcrafted Long bow, and my own handcrafted wood arrows. The bow was laminated up using 59 pieces of maple and had a pull of 90 lb at 29". I still hunted up to the deer in the Sierra Nevada mountains which took about 4 1/2 hours.

If you long range hunters had ever stalked and killed a deer in its own territory without machinery to aid you, you might have some appreciation of the feeling as I looked down on that fine buck.

IMO shooting an animal at long range is a crime, unless you are subsistence hunting. The animal doesn't have a clue that he is being hunted, and has no chance for survival. And the use of technology to replace skill is inhumane. Just because you can do something is not justification for doing it. Hunting for sport is barbaric and cruel. Hunting for meat is necessary sometimes, but anyone who can take a life without remorse is a monster.:(

Remember this is just my opinion, and I will defend your freedom to do whatever you want within the law.:)
FLAME ON!!!
 
3 shot groups are sooo misleading.If you want to shoot at a animal you better be able to shoot 10 shot groups. and just because you can do somthing does not mean you should.
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I disagree. A three shot group is more representative of a hunting situation. I'm way more concerned where a cold bore shot is in relationship to my crosshairs than any subsequent shot. I keep targets from first shots and compare for cold bore groupings.
 
have any of you nay sayers even gone to youtube?? There are a lot of videos there that show humane oneshot drt kills out past 1k yards.. Sure alot of people arnt qualified to do it, but why berate those that are?

If someone has the time and patience to put the rounds down range(like me) with a proper rifle setup and optics, and practice his shot and get it right the first time, why should we be stopped. Were does all this crazyness end, just becuase you dont like it, and dont have the skill nor desire to practice at the ranges and conditions that you wish to shoot at, dosent detract from my and anyone else who long range hunts skill.

Secondly, Why are anyone of you using any of the powerful magnums, when you never going to shoot past 200yards. Hell why use the damn .308 that will kill out past 800, so using anything other then a 30-30 is hypocritical.
Secondly, why the hell are any of you using variable power scopes with 50moa of elevation and windage adjustment?Heck even 25moa of adjustments. Thats several times more then you will ever need if your not going to shoot past 250yards.

You say, why cant you stalk closer? What about the hunter over open ground, with no cover. HOW THE HELL DOES HE GET CLOSER TO THE ANIMAL WITH OUT IT SEEING HIM? Oh ya thats right, he wont, the animal sees him and runs off.

Its like the open carry debate, like it hate, what ever your opinion is, i defend your right to carry as you choose. Same thing applies, you should support someones right to hunt ant any range he chooses, becuase the last thing you want is someone to get a damn range limiting law passed, and asking uncle same to decide what is ethhical and not ethical, to long or just right, and have even more game wardens out breathing down everyones neck.

Whats not being mentioned much, is the fact most hunters only put a few rounds per year through there gun, and never practice. I put many many more through mine every year. Why are these set my zero at 200 after only a few shots and go hunting types ok, and make up the majority of hunters, yet those with the skill to shoot out that far are ridiculed.

If it were so bad, i wouldnt have seen many magazine articles on it, like the recent ones from shooting times. What makes long range varmint hunting so much freaking better then. Its the same Fking thing. A botched shot on a varmint at 1k will leave it suffering and prolong its death just the same as with a larger animal, yet its ok to blast the prairie poodles at 1k? That is hypocritical.

Every long range hunting video i have seen, has shown the bullets impacting in vital kill zones, in varying degrees of wind and elevation and temprature and humidity. Im sure there are some that miss, but you dont learn, or grow or gain experiance if you dont ever venture out of your comfort zone and try to do something that is not normal for you or anyone else.

For the love of god, dont go around asking for range restrictions, then youll end up with over zealous beauricrats limiting you to very short range weapons and muzzle loaders with no ability to use your preacious 200yard rifles.
 
Macgille, i hope your not using artifical aiming points on your bow, if so your using artifical machinery to aid your shot...
 
When I was in high school I ran the mile. Over the years tried to keep in shape so that I could go up from about 3500 feet to 7500 feet to hunt elk. When you still hunt elk there are a lot of up and down walking with a day pack and rifle. Try to hold a rifle steady after humping up the side of a mountain when you see an elk. I have shot an elk at about 200 yards from the prone position with a sling after running to get the shot . My heart was pumping and the cross hairs were going up and down over a foot on the rib area. That was a long shot for me that day. I have never hunted elk under ideal conditions. Shifting winds, snow on the ground, no handy rock or tree limb to help steady rifle , brush to high to use the prone position is what to expect when elk hunting. When looking over little ridges and draws its darn hard to estimate the shooting range , I bet that most of the long shots that I hear about are under 250 yards. Some years ago I was a NRA Marksmanship Instructor and I had my own 100, 200, and 300 yard range for shootin my big game rifles. Under most big game hunting conditions 300 yards is a long shot.
 
I don't care how big a loudenboomer you are shooting - if you aren't accurate (aiming and mechanicals), it ain't gonna work...

You can kill an elk with a .22LR. But you don't really wanna try to make that an every day activity.

Use enough gun, and an accurate-enough gun.
 
have any of you nay sayers even gone to youtube??
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yes, I actually thought the 1000 yard antelope shot was OK the animal was laying down.but don't call that hunting IMHO.
You say, why cant you stalk closer? What about the hunter over open ground, with no cover. HOW THE HELL DOES HE GET CLOSER TO THE ANIMAL WITH OUT IT SEEING HIM? Oh ya thats right, he wont, the animal sees him and runs off.
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I guess you may have to learn your lesson the hard way.But I'll relate my story when I was 17 we were antelope hunting in WY.I took a shot that was beyond what I should have.I Hit him in his junk.He never moved I ended up firing the other three round in my gun to no avail.had to trek back to truck get more ammo and ended up walking up to within a hundred yards to the now sick animal and finishing the job.I still feel bad for making that guys last 30min on earth miserable.I for one will never strech my abilitys on game animals again.
 
Wow this is a hot topic! I own and hunt with a 300 WBY because that is what I have. I think that if you take a shot at 1000 yrs, you better kill you quarry, or you're one irresponsible SOB! I don't have as much hunting experience as many on this forum, but you have an ethical responsibility to make it as quick and as clean as possible, I have taken one muley at over 300 yrsd, but had the entire clearing laser ranged in advance and was nervous about that shot, but now realize I could have taken a slightly longer shot if necessary, but would never dream of taking a shot at 1000 yrds, there are just too many variables, the wind might not be same at that range as the breeze blowing in your face. I have seen the flags at the range blowing in opposite directions at the same time and the range is no where near 1000 yrds. Shooting paper at 1000 yds might be a challenge, but but hunting at 1000 is too risky if you are a conscientious hunter.
 
Ethics

Who needs the anti-hunters trying to take away our hunting rights. We can not even get along and respect the ways of other fellow hunters. I sure hope the anti's do not read this one.

I do a lot of ground hog hunting with an AR Varminter. You should see some of the looks I get from dyed in the wool hunter's. We may not always agree with what another hunter is doing. And some dissent is good. But to flat out call another person unethical without walking in his shoes is wrong. Tom.
 
I sure hope the antis don't read it either. The thought of shooting at animal at a kilometer or more without any regard for the life of that being disgusts me. Doing it at a range is one thing, but at the range, the target doesn't move, and if you screw up, it's not a botched kill. Also, with an extremely high power spotter, you can see holes in the target at that range, but you still won't be able to see where you hit the animal when one does finally connect. And then you gotta walk to where the animal was over uncertain terrain, track it, and then finish the job.

And besides all the variables affecting the bullet's impact, there is also the possibility of the animal moving to a walk from standing perfectly still, and the possibility of a bullet that was not designed to perform on big game at lower velocities failing to expand or whatever. Is it really worth taking this kind of chance to engage in a behavior that is more akin to grocery shopping (after all, an animal at that range probably won't know you're shooting at it until you connect) than hunting?
 
A bothched shot at 200 yards is just as bad as a botched shot at 1000.. THose of you accusing me of not caring about the animals are wrong. I do care, I do want to kill them, not wound them. As has been said before, those with out the skill shouldnt even try. BUt dont limit those of us who can and do, or those that wish to start learning and want to develop there skills so they can do it.

You should go to www.longrangehunting.com click forums and registar. Then ask your ethics questions and see what responces you get. The hunters over there care just as much as you close range hunters. Infact they dont encourage taking 1k shots till youve started getting kills at the "shorter" ranges i.e 500,600,+ thats kind of the newby jump off point on that board. One senior member has a recorded kill on a big game animal(i think antilope) out to 1142yards with a 300rum.

Preparing for a long range hunt is more involved then a typical range hunt IMHO. Besides having a good rifle/scope/ammo/shooter skill combination you need a great laser range finder, a pocket pc with exbal loaded, a kestrel portable weather station, and a friend to act as a spotter.

THis is a growing trend in hunting, as evidenced by the fact that some of the major magazines are taking notice and writing about it.

No one has answered my question about why your using the magnum calibers for hunting when your not going to use its ability to reach out and touch its prey at extended distances.
 
I personally have never considered even attempting a shot at more than 400 yds. I practice with my .257 Wby Mag out to about 350 yds, but even at that distance a missed judgment on wind speed could be the difference in a heart/lung shot and a gut shot. But because I can't imagine shooting a 1,000 yds, doesn't mean that another couldn't become proficient enough to make such a shot under the RIGHT conditions and with the RIGHT equipment and with the RIGHT preparation. My opinion is that anything less than this three RIGHT things makes such a shot inappropriate.
 
No one has answered my question about why your using the magnum calibers for hunting when your not going to use its ability to reach out and touch its prey at extended distances.
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Before you assume everyone is shooting magnums, perhaps you should ask. I've got no use for a howitzer. I shoot a 140 grain pill at ~2700 fps out of a 7x57.

My car will go 140 mph I'm told. I rarely drive over 80. Common sense tells me to know my limits. Some people lack common sense. I guess it's not really all that common.
 
No one has answered my question about why your using the magnum calibers for hunting when your not going to use its ability to reach out and touch its prey at extended distances.
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There are other advantages to a magnum than long range performance. Magnums have a longer "pipe zero" or maximum point blank zero where you don't have to compensate for ballistics. A 7mm magnum can have a pipe zero out past 400 meters with the right load.

That means it's one less thing for a hunter to worry about when taking a shot.

Also remaining energy in the bullet past 200 is quite a bit more with a magnum. Elk are tough animals and a good bullet with controlled expansion and deep penetration is going to give a shooter one less thing to worry about.

Are these advantages enough to justify a magnum? Depends on where you hunt and who you are I guess.

Jimro
 
THose of you accusing me of not caring about the animals are wrong. I do care, I do want to kill them, not wound them.
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Cue the laugh track! (Sorry Mordis, I couldn't help myself!)
 
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