Long range hunting... part 2 minimum cartridge

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so there was a thread that got pretty heated in the rifle section, about long range hunting ( the OP was talking a 1000 yards )

which I was kind of reading along with... personally, I never have, & could never see taking a shot at any animal that far away...

... but coincidentally... I've also got the "poor mans 1000 yard" threads started... I want to try shooting "targets" at 1000 yards... my 1st thoughts ( without worrying about ethics ), was if I were going to set up a dedicated 1000 yard rifle, it should be of sufficient power to take mid sized game in a SHTF / life or death survival type of situation...

the .243 / 6mm rounds are popular as small bore long range target guns, in the 100-110 grain weights, with .308 / 300 WinMag popular as mid bore, in 200-220 grain weights... & .338 bullets popular in larger bore, using up to 300 grain bullets... however, all bullets are most concerned about flying straight, & not about performance after hitting game, so they are not going to perform as well as your average soft point, & will also have given up 1/3 to 1/2 or even more of thier normal velocity

to even complicate matters more ( I'm looking at using a 30-06 as my 1st test rifle )... the bullet drop on that '06 could easily be over 25' at 1000 yards, some guns could go as much as 50 ft of bullet drop... so if aimed at regular engine room shot placement, the bullet could IMO, easily glance off a rib bone, or be angled downward so much, that it either fails to penitrate, or misses the heart, at the center of mass

curious as you guys are hunters, what you think might be the minimum cartridge to use for game ( life or death situation ) on deer sized game at that distance, taking into account huge amounts of bullet drop, & poorly designed bullet for hunting, & low impact velocities

 

[davlandrum]

Magnum - you got too much time on your hands, Dude

I think my .460 SW Mag would be ideal

to use for game ( life or death situation )

Meaning, like if I don't shoot the deer I starve to death???

If I can't get closer than 1000 yds, I deserve to starve to death to get me out of the gene pool.

 

[Scorch]

Yes, I was reading along at both the the supporters who may or may not have fired at 1000 yds, and the naysayers who may or may not have fired at game at any distance. One very good point that was mentioned that no one responded to was that if you misjudge range by even 10 yds, you could miss or wound the animal. While I see the exercise as mostly intellectual (being as I don't hunt with shooting benches, range bags, heavy target/tactical rifle, or rangefinder and spotting scope), I am sure it could be done by the right person. But I look at it as more of a stunt or to prove you can rather than true hunting. Hell, you want to prove you are a hunter, sneak up on a deer and count coup. You just want to execute an elk, 300-400 yds is still a good shot.

Realistically, at least in my mind, you are limited to the amount of gear you can carry to the shooting site by the type of terrain where you typically find elk or mulies out here in the west. Maybe back east they stand out in the open for long enough to set up all your gear and make the shot, but out here they move, even when casually grazing.

As far as cartridges go, a 308 or even the lowly 7X57 can launch a heavy bullet fast enough to kill a deer or elk at 1,000 yds. The chief advantage of higher velocity afforded by magnums is less drop/drift at any given range, making minor range estimation/wind estimation errors negligible. So a 30-06 will do it just fine with 190-200 gr bullets. And you don't have to hit them in the heart to kill them. Double lung shots will work.

As far as starving to death, you would be surprised at what you will eat if you get hungry enough.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I guess I'm going to have to start taking a rangefinder. Something else to lug around. I've had several good bulls 7 or 8 hundred yards away. Never occurred to me to lob one over in that direction.

Hell, I've probably had a 1/2 dozen good bulls 100 yards away with a bow. Let's see, you need about 15 feet of clearance in the middle.....

For rifles, something that will stay supersonic through the distance you intend to shoot.

 

[.300H&H]

1000yds. is too far for reasonable hunting...ie. the windage and estimating the exact range is problematic<scope would be a big concern> and if you wound a game animal at that distance...it really complicates things in regard to being able to get off a good 2nd shot...or being able to reasonably track the animal. I wouldn't take such a shot.


So I'll reduce the range to the long range of 300-400yds.<still a very long distance range for deer sized game> and just offer these cartridges:


.25-06 Rem.<low end - but flat and mild - ideal perhaps for pronghorn>


.257 Weatherby <a lazer beam - but at shorter ranges it can be a bit messy>


.308Win<not the 'flattest' but it'll get the job done - and is great at 200yds.
- perhaps the most versatile.>


.300H&H or .300Win.<great choice but recoil increases over .308....>


.270Weatherby or 7mmWeatherby<lazer beam - but think Elk-sized instead of deer sized>


A lot of other rounds will work too...but I'm thinking 'optimum' for 'frequent' shots at 300-400yds.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

1st off... again... I never have, & I never actually intend to... but for reasons of discussion, I'd want enough power to be able to if needed...

BTW... where I live in southern MN, it is mostly agriculteral land our section ( 1 mile X 1 mile ), has 4 home sights on it, & we have the biggest group of trees in the section on our farm... & for example 2 of the 160 acre 1/4 sections south of us, has no trees or cover at all...

again in a SHTF scenereo, there could be a deer wandering on the other end of the section, that "could" be shot from my shooting bench... it might be easier to range the distance, dope the wind, etc. than sneaking up on the deer in such open & flat country ( if the crops were out ), it would be very difficult to impossible... I suppose for those types of situations, a human enemy could be substatuted in place of a deer... I'm not planning on sniping anything, but I guess if I'm going to build & become proficient with a rifle capable of regularly shooting a 1000 yards at targets, I'd want it to be powerfull enough to kill game or human enemys at that distance should the need arise... on the other hand, I don't want to go automatically to the heaviest cartridge, so that shooting targets becomes painfull, or more expensive than necessary

so... I could never see myself taking a shot like that, but like I said, I'd like to build / set up a rifle that is at least powerfull enough to kill a game sized animal at that distance, if I ever "needed to"

as I mentioned in my 1st post, I'd be most concerned about the distance in the 1st place, but also worry about the target bullets function at the terminal end, I'd not expect it to expand anywhere close to what a normal hunting soft point would the loss of velocity, & the actual bullets trajectory hitting the target at 1000 yards

here is a 6 year olds refridgerator artwork explaining my tradjectory concerns... probably exagerated too much, but I'd think the chance of hitting a rib bone & glancing off, or penitrating one lung, but not the heart or other lung, might be much more possible with the trajectory of a 1000 yard bullet, the pointed target bullets, will likely not expand like a good soft point, & this will be more compounded by the reduced velocity at the target 1000 yards away from the gun...

 

[ZeroJunk]

Seems to me like it would be hard to get away from one of the .308 caliber magnums. They still seem to be favored if there is any wind involved. Maybe one of the 7 MM's. Calibers smaller than that might shoot well but lack sufficient energy. Keep in mind that a 50 FPS difference in muzzle velocity which is likely with factory loads, or even handloads for that matter, could make you off a foot at 1000 yards. A 60 degree temperature change could make you off 2 feet at 1000 yards. And the wind can simply wreak havoc at that distance.

 

[.300H&H]

The 7mm Weatherby will deliver a 160gr. partition bullet to 500yds. with about a 24 inch bullet drop...with about 1700+ lbs. of energy. That's impressive<and still a difficult shot>but at 500 yds. the bigger magnums <378 & 460 Weatherby as examples>are likely to have dropped about 60 inches...even though the energy is still in the same ballpark. So 1000 yds is going to be an extremely tough shot - if you are wanting to deliver a lot of energy to the target...without having to aim the rifle like a rainbowing mortar shot.

So also figure in the need to deliver 1000lbs of energy to deer-sized game and 1500lbs of energy to elk-sized game...and soon it becomes apparant that at 1000yds. it's going to get extremely difficult...because as you lose energy, the need for precision increases...and windage/bullet drop make precision all the more difficult to achieve.


Think of it this way - 1000 yds. is about 3/4's of a mile away...and any game animal wounded will have a 3/4 mile head start on running away... Not a good scenario... In a target or military sniper situation, there's no such ethical burden ie.one is basically just trying to hit the target or knock it out of commission - not worrying so much about retrieving it...


Some of the lazer beam magnums - like the Weatherby magnums -are very good...but by 500 yds...they too become arcing rainbows...The .308 is great and very versatile...but at 1000 yds. it's not going to have enough practical energy for deer and elk...and the .308 is far less powerful than the 7mm.Weatherby.

 

[ZeroJunk]

The .308 is great and very versatile...but at 1000 yds

300 H&H, I should have said 30 caliber .308 diameter. My mistake. I wasn't suggesting 308 Winchester for 1000 yard hunting, but one of the many 30 caliber magnums that shoot a .308 diameter bullet.

Anyhow, he has moved his query to reloading and since that takes the killing energy and yardage estimation out of it, it is an entirely different question.

 

[Scorch]

The .308 is great and very versatile...but at 1000 yds. it's not going to have enough practical energy for deer and elk...and the .308 is far less powerful than the 7mm.Weatherby.

At 1000 yds, a 180 gr bullet launched at 2600 fps from a 308 Winchester will still be traveling at 1200+ fps and have about 600 ft/lbs of energy, plenty to kill a deer or elk. You don't need 1,000 ft/lbs for deer or 1,500 ft/lbs for elk, or our ancestors would have starved to death. No argument, that's not as powerful as a 7mm Weatherby, but it would do the job. But you have to hit them where it counts, first. And from 1,000 yds, that's the challenge.

 

[.300H&H]

Yeah I agree...but the more I think about this thread...the more I think a 15 foot long arrow...and a very big crossbow...might be the most practical solution.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...I want to try shooting "targets" at 1000 yards..." A .308 with match bullets will do that with iron sights. Look into Palma matches. Iron sights with 155 grain .308 match bullets only is mandatory at 800 to 1,000 yards. There are lots of other 1,000 yard disciplines though. Contact the NRA or/and CMP.
"...or our ancestors would have starved to death..." Your ancestors wouldn't have ever thought about taking a 1,000 yard hunting shot on any game.
"...would be hard to get away from one of the .308 caliber magnums..." Nope. The 6mm BR holds 1,000 yard records. It's the shooter with the right rifle and cartridge that matters.
1,000 yard hunting shots are ludicruous with any hunting rifle or cartridge. No hunting bullet has enough energy at that distance. Even if the shooter is good enough.

 

[Art Eatman]

Given the number of threads on this general subject, recently, and the repetition of the same general sort of commentary, IMO this horse don't look too good.

"Dot horse you sold me, dot horse ban blind!"
"Ja, I tol' you, he don' look too good."

 

[ZeroJunk]

I discovered early on that I wasn't Fred Bear or Carlos Haithcock. And, I would advise anybody against trying to make a shot at 1000 yards in a hunting situation.

But, if I was going to, I certainly wouldn't want to give up 500 FPS or 50+ grains and the added precision in yardage estimation and bullet placement required because of it.

If a hunter thinks he has the skill to make a 1000 yard shot but lacks the discipline to tolerate the recoil of a 30 cal. magnum , I think I doubt that.

 

[crowbeaner]

If you really want to shoot out to and beyond 1000 yards you really need to pony up the dough for a 400 Cheytac. 3 MILES is not unheard of.

 

[milemission]

There's a wildcat cartridge called the .50 McMillan FatMac which came about through shortening a bottlenecked 20mm cannon case. Evidently, it has a 700 fps advantage over the 50 BMG at the muzzle (with equal bullet weight) and generates almost 20,000 foot pounds of energy. If you want to disable a car at 3 miles, that's your cartridge to do the trick. It was designed for matches with the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association.

 

[Jack O'Conner]

I hunt pronghorn antelope on the open western plains each October. This is largely a long distance shooting type of hunt.

.243 with 95 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip will hammer a big herd buck well beyond the 300 yard mark. This is not a theory - I've done it many times.

.308 with 180 grain pointed soft tip will kill any animal that walks upon the face of North America. The larger animals require more than one shot into the chest organs but result is same as smaller animals.

Shooting beyond 300 yards requires skill, accurate rifle & ammo, low humidity, low wind, well lit target (bright sunshine). Ignore these factors and disappointment will follow.

Jack

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I guess for discussion purposes... lets say that I'm going to use something basic ... I'm a poor man...

.243, 6mm X '06, 7-08, 7 X 57, 7mm Remington Mag, .308, 30-06, .338 Win Mag...

if one could build a poor mans 1000 yard rifle for target shooting, & lets say the "S" doesn't really hit the fan, but the economy fails miserably, & I needed to shoot any edible game that crossed my property, just to feed my family, or we starve during the winter ( at this point I'm not really worried about ethics or legal... maybe the biggest shame here, would be wasting a bullet & powder & primer on a missed food source )... if I were set up on my shooting bench, & I could use my laser range finder to determine the distance... & ( hey maybe today I'm eating woodchuck ), but this already over pressured & skittish deer is nervously grazing at 1000 yards ( maybe by the bait I placed there... hey I'm on survival mode here )... what do you think is the minimum cartridge / bullet combo, & resulting energy needed to kill or motally wound that midsized game animal ???

I'm good with the fact that a properly placed shot from even a .243 might do it's job to lets say 500 yards, but doubling that distance has more than double the forces acting against it's effectiveness... what do you guys think the minimum effective energy level is... at what level does plenty of cartridge, all of a sudden come up short, even if the bullet was placed well ???

 

[Art Eatman]

"...but the economy fails miserably, & I needed to shoot any edible game that crossed my property, just to feed my family, or we starve during the winter..."

I'm not gonna worry about long range. I'm gonna set out a couple of handfuls of some sort of deer-yummy--corn, e.g., or a sliced apple--and set up maybe 50 yards away and kill a doe.

 

[freakshow10mm]

I'm a 7mm fan, so for me I'd go with a 7mm-08 running 162-168gr bullets. The 7mm STW is a good long range contender. Your best bet is a 7mm or .30 caliber. The 7mm-08 will have less drop than the .308 at range. I sight all my rifles for point blank range. Takes the guess work out of it. Center the vitals, send it, get out your knife.