Long Distance Shots With CCW

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rampage841512

New member
When I decided to to start carrying a gun for self defense I only considered the very, very basics. "If I've got a gun, I'll be better able to handle an armed criminal than if I don't have a gun." Then I started reading, and since I'm a voracious reader I read a lot and learned that there is a lot more to it.

Something that seemed to make sense to me was being able, if I had to, to put rounds on Target at long distance with whatever gun I used for CCW. Because of that I decided a little practice was in order. Practice led me to change the gun, first and foremost.

Anyway, who practices for long distance shots? What things have you learned? What works best (what gun, stance, cover, grip, etc.)?

And please, I'm not asking for anyone to tell me what I shouldn't do. I'm a grown man, and I know what I shouldn't do. I also know that what I shouldn't do becomes a moot point when it's my life on the line. This is thread dedicated to shooting at long distance when your own logic tells you that you have to. I don't care what you do when you don't feel you have to. It adds nothing to the discussion.
 
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While I am a firm believer that you should be familiar enough with your handgun to hit a target at any practical range, I am curious about why you are thinking about long range personal defense shooting.

What brought this to mind? What do you consider long distance? What situation can you envision where engaging a target at long distance is necessary? What makes you think that engaging a target at long distance is both a good idea and legally defensible?

Just curious.
 
What brought this to mind?
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Criminals use rifles too.

What do you consider long distance?
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Fifty yards and out, ballpark.

What situation can you envision where engaging a target at long distance is necessary?
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One where a person with intent to kill (intent inferred by their observed actions) can see me and is holding a rifle.

What makes you think that engaging a target at long distance is both a good idea and legally defensible?
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Is it not reasonable to believe that if you are holding a rifle you can hit Targets out to the rifles effective range? I would say yes, thus making a person with a rifle who is shooting other persons a clear, immediate threat to my life. It would be a good idea to remove a clear and immediate threat. However, the choice to do so is assumed. If you wouldn't, you have nothing to contribute to answering my original questions and are wasting my time.

Now I have some for you. What is practical? Does it change based on the person doing the shooting? Does it change based on the handgun used? And, finally, do you have anything to actually contribute to my original questions or do you just want to start an arguement so this thread ends up closed so I can't get any real answers because you were bored and thought it would be fun to give me a hard time?
 
The 3 shootings that I was in while armed with a handgun all took place within 20'. While I often shoot handguns at longer than "normal" distances (up to 200 yards), it's not actually CCW practise shooting.

For whatever your reasons are, you might want to go through some warm-up shooting with a .22 handgun first, then go up to the center-fire pistol or revolver. Shooting a .22 handgun at 100 yards is "do-able", and with half-way decent accuracy.

By warming-up with a .22, you should be able to figure out what stance/grip is the best for you to use. It will also build up your self confidence, which is a necessity for accuracy. Oh, and it's a lot cheaper to shoot the .22 rounds first, then fire several "familiarization" center-fire rounds.

Several years ago, there was a drug-related homicide that I investigated. A buyer drove up in a VW bug and the dealer ran out to show him the "rocks" he had for sale. The buyer grabbed the rocks, then gunned his engine and popped the clutch to get away. The dealer ran to the fence where he had a 9mm pistol stashed, then back into the street where he took aim at the car speeding away. One round was fired, and....darned if it didn't go through the rear window and strike the buyer at the base of his neck! Distance from the shooter to the victim? 75 yards! It wasn't exactly an "accurate" shot, for the bullet did deflect slightly after piercing the window glass....but the angle of deflection turned out to be VERY slight! (This is still an unsolved homicide, by the way).
 
Waht are we talking here?

I believe a parameter needs to be established as to what a "long distance CCW" shot is. Are we talking the mythological 100yd factory open sight shot? or 30yds? At 10' people (even trained professionals) have been known to miss. So at what distance do you consider it to be "long distance"?
 
It is a good idea to know what your pistol will do at all ranges even though when using it as a defensive weapon it would be unlikely you would ever use it for that purpose. However, it could happen.

When I was a LEO, I saw a Police Officer shoot a robbery suspect with a 6" S & W 38 Special at a distance of what seemed to be about 60 Yds. The robbery suspect came out of the store with gun in hand. He was hit in the chest and went down, died with a big smile on his face. It was a one shot kill.

It wouldn't hurt to know exactly what your side arm does out to 50 Yds. But I doubt you would ever need to use it at that range. It might be wiser to hide than engage. When it comes to shootings, most people get so excited they miss at seven yards.
 
As to my reply the post following my OP, I wanted to say if your questions were just honest curiosity, I apologize. I'm just tired of every time a thread gets started around here a lot of members want to start a pissing contest over who can spout the best rhetoric.

I think my reply to the questions raised answers a lot of the others, however I will clarify in saying that by "ccw," I meant the handgun you use for this, not the concept itself.
 
It wouldn't hurt to know exactly what your side arm does out to 50 Yds. But I doubt you would ever need to use it at that range. It might be wiser to hide than engage. When it comes to shootings, most people get so excited they miss at seven yards.
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I agree, but I also want to point out that this thread isn't aimed at answering whether you should or not, but assumes you are in a situation where you feel you should. Like I said above, I'm interested in the 'how' not the 'why.'
 
I agree that it is smart to know the capabilities of your handgun at longer ranges, but it would probably be smarter to try and get away rather than engage a suspect at the distances we are talking. This most recent Omaha mall thing comes to mind...say youre in the mall, opposite end of the food court or concourse from some emo dweeb who opens up with a battle rifle. You may be alone. Your family may be by your side. Or they might be in a different area. There are tons of factors that would dictate when or why I would take a long distance CCW shot. Landing a hit at those ranges would be tough, especially with the type of guns most people carry concealed. However, a shooter might not be expecting return fire, and it may be enough to deter him long enough to get yourself or your loved ones to safety. Now we all know that "cover fire" while CCWing isnt good, but again, in some situation like this Omaha shooting, putting some rounds in the vicinity of the bad guy may impede his spree so that you can get away.


I've made hits on a plate (somewhat consistently) at 100 yards with the USP, but in a real-life situation, you dont have time to line up each shot perfectly and all the other stuff. Theres nothing wrong with knowing what your gun can do though.
 
rampage841512 said:
Is it not reasonable to believe that if you are holding a rifle you can hit Targets out to the rifles effective range? I would say yes, thus making a person with a rifle who is shooting other persons a clear, immediate threat to my life. It would be a good idea to remove a clear and immediate threat. However, the choice to do so is assumed. If you wouldn't, you have nothing to contribute to answering my original questions and are wasting my time.
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But we are not talking about rifles, we are obviously talking about handguns. We are also, I would be willing to bet, talking about the Mall again.

rampage841512 said:
Now I have some for you. What is practical? Does it change based on the person doing the shooting? Does it change based on the handgun used? And, finally, do you have anything to actually contribute to my original questions or do you just want to start an arguement so this thread ends up closed so I can't get any real answers because you were bored and thought it would be fun to give me a hard time?
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What is Practical? Depends on the shooter, the weapon, the conditions, the situation (and events leading to the shooting.)

Since you haven't outlined any of the above, it is hard to contribute anything meaningful.

But, since you are actually considering exchanging shots with rifleman using a pistol at distances in excess of 50 yards, I would say that practical considerations aside, you should fire a few rounds to make him duck and then you should run like hell for some real cover.

See, the only way to reliably hit the rifleman at 50 yards would be to take a slow, controlled shot, watch for impact and then adjust your aim. If you take all that time and the rifleman is even semi competent, you are dead.

Back to the original premise, I used to practice to 100yds with my 1911. I had to hold about 3ft of inclination and do some Kentucky windage to hit the steel plates, but after the first couple of shots, I could hit it about 5 out of 7 shots from each mag.
 
But we are not talking about rifles, we are obviously talking about handguns
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You with handgun, bad guy with rifle. How can you not see that from my posts?

And no, it isn't about the mall shooting. That was only a single incident where criminals have used rifles. I was thinking in general. And I'm not even asking about actual situations, or what you would do then, as I've pointed out time and again. I'm asking about the "how" of doing it so I can refine my own practice. If you want to know my opinions about the mall shooting, you can look at my post in BillCA's thread concerning it.

This isn't a run or shoot thread, it's a how do practice to be able to shoot thread.
 
Its going to take a lot of practice to learn to place accurate, long range shots on a target under the stress of combat, if thats what youre askin
 
The first thing to think about when considering a long distance shot, . . . will the weapon do it?

For example, a .380 like a Bersa Thunder, is not something you want to engage anything else with much beyond 75 feet, . . . nor is a Keltec .32, a Colt .25, etc, etc.

If you are using a .357, .44 mag, .45 long colt, or some of the new boomer calibers, . . . 50 yd and beyond are doable under certain circumstances. So your first choice is the weapon, . . . make sure you have one which will do the job. They will all go that far, . . . but hitting what you want, where you want, . . . you have to be picky on the weapon.

Secondly, . . . the ammo choice, . . . a .357 loaded with a 125 gr JHP (hand loads approaching max charge) will give you a very flat shooting cartridge, that I have shot at 200 yds and was very satisfied with the performance. You will need a high velocity, flat shooting, lighter weight bullet to do real well, . . . and if I may, . . . let me opine that you will not find those on the shelf at Wally World, . . . you need to become a reloader if you want to be consistant at it.

Thirdly, . . . get yourself a scope for your handgun, . . . (or possibly a laser sight, . . . I cannot recommend them, never had one). You will learn first to shoot longer distances with it, . . . it will help with your trigger pull, breathing, etc. then graduate down to open sights. The reason is you can "see" when you are wiggling through a scope, . . . but will likely blame the wind and ammo if you start out trying with iron sights.

Last, . . . when you first start out, . . . let your shooting time be very slow. Shoot only one round at a time, . . . don't even load a second one. You may be out there 3 hours shooting up the first 50 rounds. Take your time, be very deliberate, try to remember each shot up through the first 15 or so.

It is a lot of fun, . . . I did a lot of that type shooting when I was younger, . . . have a good time.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Do 15-30 seconds of jogging in place to get your heart rate up...rest 30 seconds and practice while your heart is pumping pretty good...kinda simulates the condition your heart will be in if you engage a shooter...you might be calmer, but maybe not...the rush will definately be a factor, especially if you actually fire a round, and even moreso if you take incomeing fire.

Good post, BTW. And I agree, no reason for anyone to jump and start "flaming". I'm always amazed at those who carry but don't intend to do anything if presented with danger. But, I also applaud your intentions to determine your capabilities before hand.

ALSO...be prepared to "surrender" to the good guys when they show up, Don't let your excitement get yourself shot !:cool:

Proper prior preparation prevents poor performance.

FM12
 
<moderator hat on>

Guys, the OP has made it very clear that he is asking how to make a distant shot rather than wanting to debate why or whether one might need to do so. I think that's a legitimate request, and would like to see it honored. Thanks.

</moderator hat off>

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rampage ~

The basic rule for shooting at distance is, "If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get steadier, get steadier." For defense, we should add, "If you can get behind better cover, do so."

Be willing & prepared to brace against any solid object you can, or to drop down and go prone if you've got a decent place to do so safely.

A slow hit is much better than wasting ammunition on a fast miss, if circumstances allow and you know you can focus intensely on doing what you need to do. If you can't, it is not usually a good idea to waste your ammunition and endanger innocents by shooting to miss. Obviously circumstances alter cases -- I'm thinking Charlie Whitman was kept from killing others by a whole bunch of people firing his direction, who were unable to hit him at the distances from which they were shooting. That was a good choice for them to make in the circumstances because Whitman was obviously going to keep firing if they had not engaged him, and because there were no innocents behind him in the tower. But that would be very, very situation-dependent.

As for gun choice, it's been my observation that the choice of firearm is one limitation on distance, but it's not the primary one. The primary distance limitation is the shooter's own ability and mindset. If you don't believe you can make a distance shot with your primary carry gun, or if you've never tried it, or if your trigger control is shaky at the best of times, you're simply not going to manage a long shot when you need to. Always focus on the basics, especially trigger control.

pax
 
The way to make a long distance shot is to align the sights, and press the trigger without disturbing them... just like every other shot.
You need to practice this, because knowing you can do it is half the battle. You also need to know where to hold for your gun. My carry 1911 hits about 2 inches low at 50 yards. I routinely shoot steel at 70 yards, most of the time at a 14 inch steel gong, but also at a variety of smaller targets, the smallest of which is a 4 inch plate. I expect to hit the gong, I occasionally hit the plate.
If you have trigger control issues, it will be very hard to hit anything at that distance.
It's hard to do really fast, and it's easier if you are braced.
 
Longer range shooting...

I'm from the older crowd and I'm convinced one can shoot farther than sixteen feet.

There are several considerations. As alluded to by FM12, good physical condition is an aide. Being out of breath or having one's heart pounding - from any cause - is not condusive to good marksmanship. Get in some excercise, jogging or something that builds cardio-vascular strength. (Which may help explain my recent decline in shooting accuracy...)

Get familiar with your firearm and ammunition. Practise, in other words. Also previously mentioned by Dwight55, work on basic marksmanship skills. Nasty, boring old bullseye shooting. Whatever handgun and ammo you use, work with it until you have a good idea of the holdover at fifty or one hundred or two hundred or whatever ranges you can use and figure you need to try.

In the heat of conflict, you will tend to accelerate and not pay as much attention to detail as perhaps you should. However, if you become a proficient and practised marksman, that habit will serve in any circumstance. Maybe not as well as on a casual and unhurried range, but much better than no discipline at all.

I hear the sentiment expressed often that bullseye or target range shooting skills rapidly decline when in a 'life or death' situation. That is true. On the other hand, an untrained or semi-trained shooter never improves when in mortal danger.
 
Ive shot my Seecamp at 100 yards........

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahah....I hope the criminal at that distance is the size of a 20 foot berm:D

Wildyoushouldseemynagantat100Alaska ™
 
Jogging is good for getting the heart rate up but boxing is better. I like to box for the adrenilin rush but never thought to use that rush for defensive pistol training because I don't carry. Makes me wonder though, if I did carry and wanted to duplicate stressful conditions for training, I can't think of a better way than to go to to the range with a buddy that can hold his own against you and duke it out with the gloves and headgear for half an hour. Seems silly, I know but nothing starts up the internal defenses like getting your butt kicked. 'Cept maybe being shot at. I don't think anyone's that hard core about their training.
 
My younger brother lives in Vegas and he and his compadres have been known to go to undisclosed locations in the desert and shoot hubcaps at 100 yards with snubbies.

From what I observed, stance and grip varies by shooter. None of them could pull off that shot with a 2" .38 more than half the time. I didn't exactly keep a log, but would say that one of three success was more likely.

I agree that one should practice for distance. My problem is finding a place where I can go past 25 yards. If L.A. officers practiced at range that North Hollywood fiasco may not have gone on so long.

As an armed citizen I believe that if one is far away enough to snipe, there may be other options (leave, hide, evade) but then again there may not.

I used to shoot long range with my mkII all the time as a younger man living out in the country. It was a game of knowing how much front sight to hold up at what range and wind is another animal altogether.

Have to agree with the advice to get a .22 and try that first.

Besides if you can score hits at 50 yds plus with your ccw the confidence has to go up. That alone can stop a fight before it happens.
 
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