Lone Rangers when TSHTF, Reality Check

EnochGale,

I was'nt referring to going balistic. If 10 Million gun owners refuse to register, endorse cavity searches or whatever, that is a lot of people. Whats with this Timothy Mcveigh stuff? The idea is to NOT turn the US into a war zone and certainly NOT hurt innocent people. It's about submission or dodging the bullet so to speak.

I would doubt much money would be spent hunting down 10 Million when they can't even fund road repair, schools, police and fire departments, etc.

So therefore, how effective is a gun grab scheme? You would'nt know who owns/does'nt as long as you don't tell anyone. The thread is about what side your on when TSHTF.

I suppose the government leaders, employee's and media will deem it ok when the JBT's kick in your house, rough up you and the family and kill the dog or cat. I don't support that mentality and I doubt you do either. If/when it happens, I'm referring to taking up the tent stakes an disappearing somewhere (mountains, another country, ??)before THEY turn it into a dump.
 
"The futility of taking on an M1 tank
Also reassurance M1's will be on OUR side. "

Yes, but, all armoured vehicles must stop for fuel, food, and rest for the crew. Opposing the military head on is foolish and not necessary. Goliath was killed with a stone to his forhead, not his ankle.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnochGale:
Northen Ireland and Israel/Palestine are hellholes.

Are you ready to turn the USA into one of these places for the RKBA?
[/quote]

Fortunately, yes... without hesitation.


------------------
~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
 
Johnaz2 said:
"I don't think we can reasonably assume that even 5% would participate... maybe even less than 1%"

Let's see. 1% of 70 million (low estimate) gun owners - that's about 700,000. The main difference between a gun owner and most LEO's? We have a tendency to practice, most cops I know (and I know quite a few) only practice when forced to requalify once a year. I have a friend who works for customs, he complains constantly that they NO LONGER HAVE a budget to allow them small arms practice. Of course, they also don't have any money in their budget for fuel so that he can stay current on all aircraft that customs flies. He practices small arms at his own expense. Or at least he used to. Now he just practices once a year like the rest of them.

So, let's say that out of 700,000 less than 10% are actually marksmen that are willing to take up arms against our agressors. That's 70,000 men, women and children that COULD drop a bad guy at greater than 100 yards (that's at least 1000 per state - more in western states, less in eastern ones). As long as it's only one shot, the rest of the BG's will simply duck and cover.

Now, about these ten feet tall, bulletproof bad guys. Excuse me, most LE's are there to clean up the mess afterward and write a report about it. If you think a city's SWAT, HRT or other squad will last long once the word is out, you are sadly mistaken. A city the size of LA has a SWAT team of LESS THAN 100 people total!!! I am confident that once those 'death squads' as they will become known as (because everytime they jump another gun owner they are taking 'death' into their own hands) will probably be gung ho in the begining, but once one or two or three go down to unseen fire, you might be surprised at how many of them will just stop showing up to work. Talk to LA firefighters, who, after being shot at in the South Central riots, finally just let things burn, as it was too 'unsafe' to do their jobs. Most 'public servants' are more than happy to be oppressors, as long as they are not in danger. If everytime a cop set foot outside his station, he was shot at, they wouldn't leave their stations very often, now would they? And eventually, most would find another line of work (or perhaps join us).

Think the Gov will call in ARMY? Maybe, but as soon as that call goes out, a large number of SF's, Seal's, Delta's etc will go over the wall with all the hardware they can carry. Don't think so? Read "The Resistor", a publication put out by retired SF's. In it, they interview the above groups, and MOST (not all) agree that their training has been to overthrow hostile governments and they would consider our government hostile at that point.

As far as taking on an M1 Abrams tank, you don't, you just take out their support groups. How far can a tank go, without gas, ammo, etc. About 1 days worth. And that says NOTHING about all the maintenance these big beasties need. Helicopters are even more 'needy' when it comes to support. So run away from those thing. Wait for them to come to roost, as it were and then you might be surprised at how vulnerable some of these machines are. Consider reading "David's Tool Kit: A Citizens Guide to Taking Out Big Brother's Heavy Weapons" by Ragnar Benson. He has quite a few tips. Some probably won't work, but some will. Others will be modified. I think the one thing that everyone overlooks is WE BE THE HEAVIEST ARMED NATION ON EARTH and QUITE A FEW OF US BELIEVE IN WHAT OUR FOREFATHERS FOUGHT AND DIED FOR. What does the other side believe in??? Control of masses. But to do that, we have to be disarmed. They will probably wait until our generation is dead and gone. Then, our kids will just roll over.

Of course, what's the easiest way to get the majority of our population to fall in line? Turn off the power for an extended period of time, blaming "Militia Rebels" as the root of the problem. Millions will scream for the government to "do something, anything, as long as the power comes back on...." Sheesh, I can't wait.
 
I gotta add one more thing here. The ONLY REASON that Waco turned out the way it did was that after attacking the Branch Dividians, the ATF RAN OUT OF AMMO. Do you really think that once this comes to pass, WE will give the ATF (or other BG's) a "TIME OUT" while they limp away, carrying their wounded. I think not. We will calmly go out and put one round through each one that's stupid enough to think they are the right and might of this country. And if the Branch Davidians would have done that, there would have been about 100 less ATF agents around AND they could have then escaped, mainly unharmed. But what did they do? They let the people who had just attacked their compound leave, unmolested. What idiots, given the outcome.

Besides, if every time the ATF does a call out against 'another gun nut' and they lose only 1 or 2 agents, how long will they be able to continue this type of call out??

And, once this starts, do you really think there aren't people out there who are National Guard who know where all the 'really good stuff' is? And that they won't get some and spread it around??? That's exactly what the Nation of Islam is planning to do. I know, I've read their newspapers that calls for the death of all 'Demon Whites'. And they plan to arm themselves courtesy of the US Government. They're the only ones who are going to think of this? I doubt it. I used to live in Oakland, Ca. and used to watch these fine 'upstanding' blacks hold rallies against whites. Even more scary were the 'brothers' dressed in tuxs doing military style close quarter drills. When I asked another black person what they were doing, he said, "Oh, they're just training for THE DAY".

I step off my soapbox now.
 
EnochGale,

I should add - While I won't be the one to start a revolution even though you seem to think I'm Tim Mcveigh reincarnate, Should they jack boot me and mine while I'm home, I would return fire if capable. Kind of like defending oneself like most on this site talk about. I would also defend my neighbor from agents of tyranny also if possible.

I don't intent to just give in. Yea, I'd loose, but at that point, you already have. I'm pretty passionate about RKBA. It is the tyrants and power brokers who intend/want to destroy the US. They started with the constitution and are heading into the schools per some posts mentioned on this site.

Just so you know I'm not Mcveigh - although I do use Scotts turf builder plus II on my lawn, My guns are in a heavy safe cleaned and oiled, taken out around hunting season and sometimes used, sometimes not. I don't own any assault weapons, at least by today's definition, travel all over as an IT consultant, ex-Air Force electrical power production specialist in civil engineering, Graduate degree in Electrical Engineering, married, kids, pets, lots of real estate I hope to make money on, play the stock market and 401K's, own lots of power/hand tools, (just finished a 65 Malibu Chevy) and pay a LOT of taxes. Oh, and very little time to enjoy all this stuff.

I just wish our leaders held dear their oath like most of the ex- GI's here. God forbid we should have a war ever again in this country. Maybe we on this board should run for political offices and help change the demise of the constitution and restore some common sense then focus on the real issues - education, prosperity, faulty HMO's.....

[This message has been edited by RobertR (edited October 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by RobertR (edited October 24, 2000).]
 
I'm interested in this conversation and appreciate everyone's opinions. I have a lot yet to learn.

One thing I *have* learned is to avoid attacking where the enemy is strong. Attack instead where he is weak.

Our government can not close a 1500 mile border with Mexico. How many miles of railroad tracks and highways would there be to protect to ensure control over an angry citizenry?

How big does a "team" have to be to pull a few railroads spikes, bring down an electric tower, etc.
-----

I recall part of a story I read long ago. If I remember correctly, some journalist was interviewing a Chinese official about some Sino-Japanese conflict. (If anyone knows the accurate story, please correct my failing memory.)

The journalist noted for every Japanese killed, the Chinese were losing (I believe) FIVE Chinese.

The Chinese official fell quiet, was thoughful, then brightened.

"We lose five for every Japanese? GOOD! Soon, no more Japanese!"
-----

Sneakiness. Small groups. Attrition of personnel and materiel.

However, let's do the "reality check".

We have the ballot box and surreptitious recovery of the jury box before such evil and violent thoughts should even be considered.

Ensure protection and recovery of the Bill of Rights and our country need not undergo the alternative horrors.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>-----
Sneakiness. Small groups. Attrition of personnel and materiel.

However, let's do the "reality check".

We have the ballot box and surreptitious recovery of the jury box before such evil and violent thoughts should even be considered.

Ensure protection and recovery of the Bill of Rights and our country need not undergo the alternative horrors.[/B][/quote]

I agree that we should try everything possible in the legal and political arena before going "outside the box". And even if a few hotheads wanted to ape Tim McVeigh, the vast majority will put up with a hell of a lot before they take up arms. (The Founders knew that--they wrote as much when they noted that people will endure a long train of abuses before they finally rise up.)

But I argue with your description of what's being discussed as "evil and violent". What's being discussed is fighting back against a government intent on disarming and enslaving you. Violent? Certainly. But not at all evil, no more so than defending your life from an armed robber or trying to escape from slavery.

Working within the law is generally the best approach--it's slow and often frustrating, but the losers don't (generally) wind up in prisons or graveyards. But the law is, ultimately, a _means_ not an _end_. If the law is useless for defending your freedom, or if it has been corrupted into a tool for _stealing_ your freedom, reform it or DISCARD it. A corrupt government has no more right to your respect and obedience than the mafia does.

Nazi deathcamp guards who were executed for "just following orders" were on a different side of the badge from, but ultimately no worse than, the German citizens who continued giving a corrupt government (and evil laws) the respect they no longer deserved. When the time comes that our laws have become nothing more than a tool for oppression (and as bad as they are now, that isn't the case), we shouldn't be blinded by respect for what they once were.
 
they didnt put Al Capone in prison for murder, prostitution, bottlegging liquor.

...They put him in prison for "tax evasion".

Meat-Hook
 
This is purely anecdotal, but another facet of the discussion.

I have a very good friend in Los Angeles, who was a Navy SEAL (two tours) in Vietnam. Now, he is a computer "geek". Once, when I was at his home, in his office, filled with all kinds of computer goodies, we were talking about the above subject.

He looked at me and said, "You know," pointing to his computer goodies, "I can do more damage with that stuff right there, than I ever could with the toys I had in Vietnam."

It won't all be "firefights." Just a thought.

J.B.
 
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking:
What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? [...] The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"

The Gulag Archipelago, A. Solzhenitsyn
 
Excellent quote!

------------------
The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me

Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
 
I'm sure when the time comes I'll be able to give them a run for their money.

The real concern is that this country is now almost evenly divided on the issues of liberty. Look at this presidential election; with the garbage the Clinton/Gore regime dragged this country through this election shouldn't even be close, Bush should be at 80%, Harry Browne at 10%, Pat Buchannon at 5%, Nader at 4% and Gore at 1% or less. No, that's not the case, there is clearly nearly one half of America that wants to be a slave of their government. They've bought into the lie of socialism and sold their birthrights for a meal.

Whoever it was who mentioned taking a firm hold of the western mountain states and saying "Adios!" to the Liberals has the right idea. We just cannot live with the Libs anymore, just too different, we want to be free they want to be slaves and think we should too. There is no reconsiliation we just don't fit together. The only answer is a divorce and failing that, civil war.

------------------
... But as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
 
Some of us seem to think it's hopeless. Others think we could win a violent revolution or something. But does it really have to come to that? I don't think so. If, in 2004, we have a president on our side, when congress goes to renew the assault weapons ban, he can veto it, and we're good for a little while, anyway. Let's try to keep a little positive, okay? I mean, yeah, we got a lot to be pessimistic about, but let's not give up on things yet. It's far too early to give up and assume this country is doomed and we're all destineded for an eternity of slavery. I mean, hell, even if the "socialist nightmare" that some people in power want comes true, it won't last. The Romans, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Monarchies of Europe, the Communists, the Nazis...they all fell. A bloated tyranny can't last forever.
 
often scenarios are posted by armchair commandos with little or no real experience. Its the equivalent of intellectual masterbation. Other times the guy who starts the post has THE answer and just wants to look smarter than everyone else.

Both are exercises in futility. Read them for fun, not for "content".

thats my 2¢
 
Michael - "It is extremely difficult to live off the land in perfect health for any length of time whilest one is being hunted. "

Ever heard of Eric Robert Rudolph?



------------------
 
It is our obligation to seek redress through "legal" means (even though many, if not most laws are illegal*!).

I will protect my most precious of rights, that of self-defense, with my life, if necessary.

The mere suggestion that I, or any like-minded and ethical American would kill children, sends cold fire through my veins. I encourage that poster to contact me directly.

*Having either no Constitutional basis, or countermanding that Constitution.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stormrifle:
Michael - "It is extremely difficult to live off the land in perfect health for any length of time whilest one is being hunted. "

Ever heard of Eric Robert Rudolph?
[/quote]

You mean that guy the feds have spent months and months trying find down in North Carolina? The guy who has eluded the all-powerful forces of the government for all that time (albeit probably with help)? The guy the feds have given up on finding, despite leaving a token force in place while pulling out most of the their goons? The guy of whom various NC residents have stated to reporters that--due to the overbearing, thuggish behavior of the feds--they wouldn't turn in even if they knew where he was?

(Not that I approve of Rudolph's bombings of abortion clinics. But if someone who is accused of a heinous act like bombing medical facilities can find "aid and comfort", I suspect that the same would be true of men and women viewed by their neighbors as patriots engaged in a war against an unjust, unconstitutional government.)
 
Being Eric Rudolph only works for Eric Rudolph.

If EVERYONE were hiding out out there, they'd be bumping into one another :)


Battler.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top