Local LE Agency gone nuts!

Status
Not open for further replies.
O

Outlaw1

New member
I was talking with a friend of mine today who is a well respected LEO in a small town near here (in NC).
I mentioned something about the latest screw-up by his former dept.,that he left when he discovered the higher-ups were crooked.
It was all over the local news about an "armed standoff" with a gunman who was barracaded in a house. Tac-team, snipers, 'bout 40 cops in riot gear carryin' M16s, and an evacuated neigborhood made the scene!
After a 6 HOUR standoff, they discovered the house was EMPTY!!!
Anyway, my friend said "that's nothin', let me tell ya' what they did a few weeks ago".

Seems about a month ago there was a guy who yelled at a neigborhood kid to get off his lawn, kid's parents called 911, and 30 minutes later the guys house is surrounded by 49 police units, 20 Sheriff's dept units, SWAT team, snipers, and an armored car!
While the guy's out back grilling a steak, they cut his phoneline so nobody can warn him. A couple of hours later, the break the door in, and shoot him deader than he!!
He was UNARMED, and the warrant was for "Communicating threats"!
Needless to say there was nothing on the news about this one, and there are a LOT of P.O.ed people around there.



------------------
Happiness is a tight group!
 
No offense, but is there ANY news source we can look at? This is just too much . . . you'd think there'd be riots in the streets.

------------------
Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Don, it doesn't surprise me one damn bit that there was nothing in the meedja.

In Denver, at 0200 Monday, a SWAT team killed a man during a no-knock raid. The warrant was based on a tip from a "reliable source" (read: crackhead with a probation problem) that the guy was dealing.

Well, the thugs kicked in the guy's door. He woke up, grabbed his gun and fired once, and missed. The cops then hosed him down.

They found no drugs, no cash, nothing to indicate that he was a dealer. They *did* find his 8 kids. They also found that the address on the house didn't match that on the warrant. Woopsie.

I've seen exactly *one* article on this murder. One. It was then quashed.

As I told a couple of local TFLers, Mayor Makepeace of ColSpgs, Mayor Webb of Denver, and my dealer, who is married to the top ballistics expert in the state: I'm more afraid of the cops than the criminals. I now keep my rifles loaded as well as my shotguns; you'll understand why.

How much more of this bovine exhaust (tm Dennis) must we take?

------------------
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
Does anyone believe that LEOs wouldn't cooperate when it comes to confiscation of citizen's guns?
The old thinking was that local police would never follow those orders if given.
I think we have a new generation of officers that would enjoy it and do it in a heartbeat!
 
I know most LEO's are fine people and truly serve for the best reasons. But, I would respectfully suggest that they take a very hard look at 'no-knock' warrants, the militarization of their work, and the so-called 'Drug War'. If they don't lobby within their industry to change this situation, then these incidents will further erode the confidence of many citizens.

Every now and then, in Phoenix, we'll hear that a certain area of town is blocked to traffic - it usually comes across on the rush hour traffic reports. It is described as a 'police situation'.

With the media as lame as it is these days, I wonder how many of these 'police situations' are actually citizen murders, whether 'accidental', mistaken identity or whatever. I have little confidence that the sh** would really hit the fan unless it was one of our wealthy or political elite in the sights.

Besides, whenever an innocent civilian is gunned down, it's clear that too many people think this is just an unfortunate but necessary result of winning our 'Drug War'. Pitiful priorities.
 
Hi,

I use to have respect for LEO's but I am losing it fast. This spring some goof ball tried to steal my "ol brush" wagon from my drive way. The dumb s**t broke the ignition switch and couldn't get it started! I admitt I did not have it locked, but it's in the drive way right next to the house! Well I called our city police and a cop, (young)came by to make a report. In short, he ended up chewing ME out for not having my car locked! He was going to write me out a ticket until I pointed out to him it was on private property. Thats the first time I had any dealings with a LEO in over thirty years, and if they all act that way I hope to hell it will be my last.

That dude would have gladly taken my guns away!
 
No cop that I know actually likes 'no-knock' warrants. They are the result of several factors, among them: small, easily disposed of evidence and a Hollywood-induced 'Take a cop with me' attitude.

A 'no-knock' warrant is supposed to be used if: the evidence needed can be disposed of in the time the critter strolls to the door, or if the critter is going to arm himself after the knock and kill officers.

The concept being, that if you break in the door, the pyschological shock immobilizes the critters until the officers can render the situation safe.

Just out of curiosity, let me post a couple of hypothetical scenarios, and y'all post your solutions.

#1 You have an arrest warrant for a critter, charging him with Murder. He's been in prison twice, so this time he goes down for a long time. Reliable informants have told you that he's armed with at least two pistols and he has made statements along the lines of: "I'll kill any officer who tries to take me in. I ain't got nuthin' to lose." He's street-wise, wary and can probably smell an officer a mile away.

You have Probable Cause to believe that said critter is occupying a squat with his common-law wife, children and assorted friends.

Solutions or comments?

(I'll post another one later, if I still have a butt left. ;-) )

LawDog
 
Yea, that's right the cop's kill an unarmed person, and there's no media coverage... give me a break. Just where in N.C. did this happen? [what town] and the date this happened. I'd like to check this one out for myself, and confirm the statements you have related on your post.

[This message has been edited by 12-34hom (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
:( If true then it is very bad.

------------------
It's not paranoia, they really are out to get me.


[This message has been edited by Fury (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
Lawdog, why is it not possible to set a type of "ambush" outside the house, so the perp simply finds himself surrounded as he leaves? This way he won't have a weapon capable of defeating body armor (at least, not concealed.) That's the best I can do for you, I'm not a cop. I know body armor doesn't cover all the bases but being a cop is dangerous and it seems to me that taking a subject who can't defeat your armor is as safe as it's going to get. The bottom line is that no-knocks get decent people murdered.
I understand that it's not the intention of rank and file cops to murder people, but that's what is happening. If I burst into someone's house with a mask and a shotgun, killed him as he shot at me and then claimed self-defense and that I "had to do it," would I escape prosecution for first-degree murder?
Once again, it seems to "civilians" that lots of cops think we're the enemy. I'm getting tired of them no matter how much respect I have for you and others.

------------------
Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
I don't get the High Point, NC newspaper, but my mom does. I ask her about it and she showed me a "Letter to the editor" in yesterdays (Dec. 3rd) High Point Enterprise.
It talks about some recent articles, which I don't have because mom doesn't keep papers around for more than a day or two. Here's yesterdays letter:
---------------------------------------------
POLICE USE TOO MUCH POWER
"I would like to respond to the articles Teresa Killian wrote in the Nov. 21 Enterprise about unserved warrants that hamper officers. The articles talk about all the backed-up warrants and also state that serving warrants for simple assaults and communicating threats is difficult and that some are backed up as far as 1986.

Well, it couldn't have been that difficult considering what the High Point police did to John Patrick Howell. They evacuated residents from Hickory Chapel Road, blocked the road off and surrounded the house, all within 30 to 45 minutes of recieving a 911 phone call at 8:15 p.m., when they didn't even have a warrant until 10:30 p.m.

How can they find the time to send out 49 units of police and 20 units of the Guilford County Sheriff's Department, SWAT team, deadly force snipers, state police, and a tank on just a phone call when they can't seem to deliver a simple warrant?

What was so special about Howell that they went over and beyond their duty, taking the man's life over a simple warrant for communicating threats?
DONALD R. CATHEY
Hilburn Drive
---------------------------------------------
Mom said there were letters similar to this in just about every other paper. I guess there is no rioting because it's a pretty nice, upscale neigborhood and the people just aren't the rioting type.
I'll see what else I can find out.

------------------
Happiness is a tight group!
 
Don, an ambush is a perfectly reasonable scenario. One of my preferences, as a matter-of-fact. (Used to be, anyway)

One of the concerns that I've heard expressed about the 'ambush' is if the critter goes rodeo and starts shooting. Bullets sprayed about tend to wind up a VERY bad places. Daycares. Busloads of nuns.
I can tell you that if a tac team ambushes a critter and he starts spraying the neighborhood and kills any innocent, that death will be laid at the feet of the police.

Too many court cases where the Dept was held liable due to 'faulty tactics.'

I understand how you feel, Don. I'm not in L.E. anymore, but I help train them. If you have an idea how we can minimize risks to ANYONE, tell me. We'll try it. (I'll try anything once. Maybe twice. ;-))

LawDog
 
Lawdog,
It would seem to me, following the scenario that you have given, that some surveilance of the residence, followed by the ambush that Gwinny put forward would work, wouldn't it?
 
Gentlemen, please. Yes, there are sometimes a few screwed-up ops, and innocents get harmed. But really! The vast majority of LEO's are trying to fight the good fight and keep civilization a reality and not a fond memory. No-knocks are neccessary. I wouldn't want my local LEO's being forced to give a warning for the dealers and sociopaths to get their HighPoints and Tech-9's ready before the team enters. I agree with 12-34hom on this one. Do more research on these incidents before you declare the police as more of a threat than the criminals. I have friends on two of my local PD's and I see the crap they have to go through every single day. Give 'em a break. They're outnumbered, have little outside support, and everyone thinks they can tell them how to do their jobs.
 
LawDog, how often does the warrant team actually get on the computer and/or telephone and verify that the guy named on the warrant actually lives at the named address, and that there aren't any other names popping up at that address (from state tax records or whatever)?

it seems to me that maybe half the innocents that get shot were shot because of poor followthru. the other half seem to get shot because they try to defend themselves against dynamic entry.

I haven't walked in your shoes, but I think I understand our legal system enough to know that we *have* to hold LEOs to the same standards as everyone else. if LEOs faced the same charges as homeowners in mistaken identity shootings, LEOs would start taking more care in their preparations. if there is no penalty for an "oops", there will continue to be an increase in the innocent homeowner murder rate. you've got to have the stick as well as the carrot.
 
[flamethrower]

cdf, with all due respect, spare me. There is absolutely NO FRIGGIN' EXCUSE for cops who murder innocents. NONE. PERIOD. EVER!

"A few screwed-up ops," you say? Well, maybe if they were doing their jobs CORRECTLY there wouldn't BE any screw-ups! MAYBE they'd stop MURDERING PEOPLE!

Cops are killing people whose only crime is trying to protect themselves. You think that's OK? Fine. When YOUR front door is kicked in at 0200 by the local goon squad, tell them that you understand that they're just doing their jobs. If you can get the words out BEFORE THEY KILL YOU.

I'm not painting all cops with the same brush. But I have to question the motives of the ones who participate in unjustified assaults on non-criminals.

There was a no-knock in Colorado Springs on Tuesday. I have no problem with this one. Why?

--The perps had extensive prior histories of violent criminal activity
--They had been surveilled for two weeks prior to the raid, and documentary evidence provided to the judge who signed the warrant
--The cops ensured that the perps weren't home during the raid

You see the difference? This one was done by the books. No one was harmed, and due process was followed. It wasn't initiated by a crackhead with a grudge, dammit!

[/flamethrower]

------------------
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
Coinneach: But here's my point, we have absolutley no evidence [other than letter to the editor!!!] that anyone was murdered or even killed in this instance. Take a look at the post, 49 police units? 20 sheriffs units?swat team, snipers, amored vehicles all for one guy? Who are we dealing with here Abul Nedal? The main funtion of "sniper teams" is to gather intell, and if the subject was out side and BBQing why would they not confronted him there instead of waiting for him to go indoors and create a barricaded situation? There's more to this than what's been posted, and i'm waiting on some e-mail replies for furher info. Ambiguous postings such as these need more information so that if true; one can go to the source and check it out. Have tragedies happened of this nature, yes they have, are there excuses for them; no there's not. But i would like proof of this incident[outlaw1's] other than a "letter to the editor" before judgement is passed on all the cops who are out killing innocent citizens.
 
Ivanhoe, when it was me on the warrant--everytime.

The flip side of that being it was a rather rare occurance to serve a warrant against the owner of the residence. Most of the time a critter would be hiding out at a friends place or renting it, with mom or dad actually paying the rent.

In my humble opinion, LEO's should be held to a higher standard than civilians.

The flip side of that being that a 'no-knock' warrant, in MY experience, is also held to a higher standard. Remember, a DA and a judge are signing off on these warrants. I can't tell you how many times I've spent hours re-writing a warrant before a judge would sign off on it.

I can't imagine any judge putting his name on the dotted line just because some druggie wants some revenge.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I think I'd want to know the name of the judge who decided to authorize a 'no-knock' warrant on so little information from such a dubious source.

But that's just me.

;-)LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
I don't keep a file on this stuff, but here's another thread along the same lines:
http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=32492

This was only about 3 months ago, in LA. How many of these incidents do we need to discuss before we agree there's a little problem here? And, for those LEO's that justify this stuff, how are you going to feel when its your family member or friend that's lying there in a pool of blood?

I'm with Coinneach 100%. There is just too much of this crap that goes on, and if our LEO's have the attitude that 'there are sometimes a few screwed-up ops, and innocents get harmed', then civilian support goes out the window. And, you're pulling down the majority of LEO's, because I still think the vast majority won't buy this foolishness.

If we're talking a hot pursuit for a murderous BG, that's one thing. But this crap where innocents are murdered because we're concerned the BG might flush some evidence? How can you guys be flip about this? Too much of this is justified by the 'Drug War', and it really pi***s me off.

If someone breaks down your door in the middle of the night, your first response will be to grab a firearm to defend yourself, your wife and your kids. You're half asleep, and it happens damn fast. You're dead before what's really happening even registers. Gee, too bad ... it was just one of those little screwed-up op's.

BS

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top