Loading my new 1858 New Army

D

DoctorV

Inactive
Hi!
I was glad to find this forum after getting a New Army 1858 from Cabelas (Pietti). Thanks for having this forum because I did find answers to almost all of my typical newbie questions in your posts.
However, "almost" is an operative word here:) .
I plan to try out my new toy this Sunday but before I head to the range I'd like to hear your opinion on two things.

When I cock it to load (the cylinder rotates freely) I can hear distinct "clicks" as I rotate the cylinder. When it clicks it kind of stops and looks aligned with the loading lever. However, when I try to lower the lever, it isn't aligned with the chamber and the lever hits the cylinder and doesn't enter the chamber(the chamber seems to go a little past the lever). The only way for me to actually insert the lever into the chamber is to stop the cylinder just before it "clicks home". Then I can easily insert the lever. I am very surprised because it seems logical for the cylinder to click home when it is positioned for seating the ball. Otherwise, you have to manually position it under the lever. Do I do something wrong? Is there a small secret I don't know about?

Also, this question of using wads vs lube to seal the chambers. I got a bag of lubed wads from Cabelas. I have the lube, too. If I use a lubed wad between the powder and the ball, do you advise me to apply the lube anyway? It seems to me that if I apply the lube there is no need for a wad, right? However, lubricating the chambers will be messy. On the other hand, I want to be safe.

I will really appreciate your input.
Thanks in advance,

Doc V
 
I just got the same gun a few weeks ago. Have put a box of 100 .454 lead balls through it already! (be sure to measure the cylinders I'll bet you need .454's too -- not .440's)

If you have a little oversized balls that will leave a small lead ring after pushing the ball in behind the powder charge (I've been using 25 grs of Triple Seven and it works great!) then you will have a good fit so no need for patch but its still a good idea to use crisco, beeswax, etc. for ensuring against chain firing and to keep 'er lubed well for clean up, etc. It still is hot here and the wonderlube I was using was a liquid when I used it. Guess I'll have to refriderate it until ready to use it.

In fact, Triple SEven recommends no patch, just seating ball right next to powder but they recommend a good tight fit. The bigger balls will also give you better accuracy. The Triple SEven cleans up real easy too. BE SURE YOU DON'T PUT YOUR #11 PERCUSSION CAPS -- I USED CCI -- UNTIL YOUR LOADED! Safety, safety, safety....... I just started this muzzle loading business and I have fallen in love with it. Gonna go deer hunting with the rifle next year. If you ever reloaded smokeless and you like to shoot, you'll absolutely go nuts over black power (muzzleloading) shooting.... I guaruntee it!

I used the Triple Seven (100 grs) yesterday in my inline 209 magnum muzzle loader rifle and it worked great with the Powerbelts right behind the powder (again no patch).

That Cabela's New Army is a great gun especially for $179! I'm thinking of getting the little pocket pistola for $219 before CA's wonderful Fed Govt representation (Feinslime and Boxer) put blackpoweder and muzzle loaders under FFL rules!

(Oh..... your question...... I noticed the same thing until I got to the range....... then I noticed that when in half cock position when you charge the cylinder (just to the left of the 6 o'clock position ) then put the ball on and rotate under charging arm until it clicks, when you push the ball in it is lined up right........ someone on here more experienced can probably explain why that is but I noticed the same thing you did until I got to shooting and it wasn't a problem)
 
Thanks, Whisk!!

Do you mean by saying that no problem occured at the range that when you first tried it at home on the "dry run" your gun's loading lever was hung on the cylinder and wouldn't enter the chamber after the cylinder "clicked home"? If this is the case, whatever the reason, I am okay with it as long as the actual loading isn't affected. It would be cool if somebody from the experienced folks here knew why is that so. Doesn't seem logical.

I hesitated between Colt 1860 and Remington 1858 and decided to try the 1858 first due to the solid frame and ability to replace cylinders fast. Wasn't it an 1858 that Clint Eastwood used in the "Pale Rider"? He seemed to replace cylinders in a few seconds.

Thanks again,

Doc V
 
The gun should be at half cock when you load, so you can manually turn the free-turning cylinder under the loading lever.
You don't need a lubed wad and grease over the ball - one or the other will do, depending on your preference (some people shoot "naked" - no grease, wads, lube pills, etc). Also remember to make sure the caps are seated properly to prevent chainfiring, and if a cap falls off a loaded chamber during firing, stop and re-cap; don't leave an open path for a spark into a loaded chamber.
 
"The gun should be at half cock when you load, so you can manually turn the free-turning cylinder under the loading lever."
Thanks for your comments!
But that's my point exactly. When I have it at half cock and manually turn the cylinder, as soon as I hear a "click" it is too late for the lever to enter the chamber (the chamber seems to go a little bit "past" the axis of alignment). It can enter it just before the cylinder "clicks". Whisk says it happens to his Pietti as well but when he loads it for "real" the problem is gone. It remains to be seen for mine Remington, too.
 
Now I see what you mean. Yeah, on all of my revolvers, you set it at half cock, then rotate the cylinder until it clicks, then move it forward so the cylinder falls under the loading lever. But don't move it too far - it won't back up. And remember to seat the ball on the powder firmly, because you do not want a dead air space between powder and ball.
The lube/lube pill/lubed wad is a never ending question. Usually, I smear Crisco or Bore Butter over the loaded ball. I just bought a batch of lube pills that are placed UNDER the ball, over the powder, or simply over the ball. I've never used lubed wads, mainly because of the cost. Try the lube over the ball, try the wads over the powder, maybe try some lube pills, but I think you should use somethng. And don't forget the caps and the way they fit. I read an old Colt ad that said oversized caps that have to be squeezed to fit are the best, but many shooters will argue that suggestion. I use #11 on all but one of my revolvers. #10 might fit when you first shoot, but as the nipples foul, #10 will be too small.
 
Doc V, the hand on your new Remington may be just a tiny bit too long. When you rotate the cylinder at half cock, that click you hear is the hand dropping in to it's notch on the ratchet at the back of the cylinder. My Pietta Remington has the rammer lined up with the chamber when the click occurs.

You might look at your hammer when you bring the pistol to full cock to see if the back of the hammer travels all the way to the frame, then moves forward slightly to rest at full cock. If it is being stopped before it contacts the frame the hand is what is stopping it. The additional rearward travel the hammer is capable of will raise a shorter hand high enough to rotate the cylinder to lock if you shorten it slightly, and a shorter hand will let that click happen sooner, right when the chamber is aligned.

Most of us eventually become tinkerers with these pistols anyway so you may as well jump on in now! Order a couple of spare hands & springs, you'll probably need one within a year if you shoot much. They all come a little long and must be fitted to the pistol. You just need to look at the angle on the hand tip of the one in your pistol now and keep that angle the same as you shorten the hand a file stroke or two at a time. If you don't want to fool with it now, the gun is quite loadable the way it is, I doubt if you have any problems with it under actual loading conditions. You can fit one better when you break your first hand spring! www.dixiegun.com is where I get my parts but they are available from several other sources.

Steve
 
Thanks, Steve!

There is a reason I like good forums.:)

I learned here in a day more than I probably would in a month by reading manuals and boring books.
I have to confess I don't even know half the words you used to describe the cause and the solution. Not to worry, I felt the same 4 years ago when I got my first semi-auto pistol and it jammed the first time. All this just makes me learn the stuff sooner.

Doc V
 
What Steve says makes sense but I still have the original question: "why when at half cock rotating cylinder with no ball to depress, the plunger will be just a little off and you have to move it back a little bit from where it clicks to allow plunger to fit in cyl but when your loading an actual lead ball it works fine.

You'll see what I mean when you go shoot Doc. It just doesn't seem logical. Somehow having the ball in there and pushing down on that "lines it up"!

Anyway, when I said no problems thats exactly what I meant. I put gun on the handle with loading arm toward me and load powder in the cyl just left of the 6 o'clock position then put a ball on top and rotate cyl until clicks (half cock) and push handle all the way down seating ball on top of the powder. With 25 grs the ball is well within the cylinder. I put some grease in the holes and then load the primers (CCI #11's). I've tried the primer loader but actually can load them faster and more solidly with just my hands.

Oh...... and just like Josey Wales, you can get another cylinder at Cabela's (I think thats what he did ;) ) and use a loader and have it already loaded or load it in the gun but they change in and out real fast as you have found out.
 
Whisk, the concave rammer end on the convex ball is probably having a centering effect. Then again, maybe it's angels!

Steve
 
Steve, it does make a perfect sense. You suggest that once the plunger engaged the ball it is actually "guided" by it into the chamber. If, however, I lower the lever on an empty chamber, it can hang on the cylinder.
In the mean time, I gonna find out what "concave rammer end on the convex ball" is. I have a feeling, though, that it is a curved end of the plunger that engages the ball.

Doc V
 
I know angels:

One owns a 55 chevy with speeners and the other is a prison guard!

That must be it!

Now that I've put a few hundred. Rounds through the ol' 44, it doesn't fail to line up anymore when not loaded.

Shooting "fixed" it. Imagine that!
 
Just remember when you shoot with grease over your balls and you are shooting outdoors, take cover on one side of your vehicle and point the firearm over the top of your hood. This way, you not only protect yourself from ricocheted bullets, but also when you get home you can wash the grease off of your car's hood , and probably your windshield as well.
By the way , grease does not come off with windshield washer fluid either, nor is it transparent. But your car's front end will be really,really clean and dishwashing liquid dealers will thank you for it too.

Have fun shooting it.
 
Sundance44s

Whisk ... these pistols are just plum clunky out of the box .. after a few 100 rounds they just get better and better ..and if you wear something out its uasually just a hand full of 3 dollar small parts ... ive got one Pietta 1858 that i`ve shot at least a thousand rounds through..and it was a bargin den display model , payed 100 bucks for it and never have had to replace a part ..I`ve got a little box full of the innards just incase , and i own one of each maker of the same gun now and i still shoot this old Pietta . I`m just wondering how long it will hold up , ya hear so many talk bad about the quality of our Itilian Pistolas .. glad to hear yours healed it`s self at least once .must be the dark arts .
 
Sund:

I love that friggin' gun! I've shot over 100 .454 balls through it (gettin' close to 200) and it just gets funner and funner.......

I haven't shot my rifle so much 'cause when I go to my little range I just get ta shootin' that little guy and its quick, easy, and a real ball!

25 grs of FFFg Triple 7, the .454 balls, and some Bore Butter and I'm happy as a pig in poop for a couple hours! (it'd be more if my wife didn't have a damn cell phone!) :mad:
 
Mine does not line up with the loading lever at cocking the cylinder. i guess it is not supposed to because I have loaded mine dozens of times and shot it dozens of times. I have even unloaded two boxes of magtech cowboy action shooting ammo through my conversion cylinder.
One thing that happens is when I use my 777 ,after 30-40 shots my cylinder is soo dirty that it needs a cleaning to get it shooting right again. Otherwise the cylinder binds up from all of the residue from the black powder.
The caps also get stuck between the cylinder and the frame when I want to get quick with it, like cowboy action stuff,
Yes, the cylinders change quicker than some others I suppose. I only have this one, but I have seen a dragoon, and mine changes much faster. These things are fun to shoot allright. I really got a sense of what the cowboys of old went through when firing these things.

If you do happen to pass the push rod with the ball in there and the chamber full of powder, what I do is remove the ball,empty the chamber, or be very,very careful I do not spill it when I got a wad in it, and remove the cylinder , put it back in a few notches before the rod, and re do the chamber either completely or partially as mentioned before. I would rather empty the chamber so I do not worry about a spark hitting my powder, but if i shot previously in that particular chamber some grease may have been left over and attracted the powder respectively.

I think that covers it, along with what everbody else contributed.

Any further questions can be referred to the rangemaster at the gun range.
 
To Wad or Not to Wad

Strictly speaking you don't need anything between the powder and the ball, but it might be a good idea anyway. Yes, it does help prevent chain fire to use wads under the ball or grease over it, but I believe the primary safety factor is getting a nice tight-seating ball that makes a ring when you ram it. Also, remember that you can also get chain fires through nipples holes, so think about recapping your misfires before you shoot out the rest of the cylinder.

But back to wadding. I use it because it helps keep the bore clean and the gun lubed while I shoot. My Uberti 1860 can go pretty much all day without any fussing or cleaning when I use lubed wads. I like to punch out my own from a big sheet of stiff felt and soak them in a half and half mix of beeswax and olive oil that I melt in a double boiler (well, ok, a pie plate in a frying pan). If you don't have real stiff beeswax you may want to add some parafin to firm it up some. This stuff splatters down the bore (all over the place really) as I shoot and keeps the gun from fouling up.

Some people favor lube pills; just making little cookies of wax and lube and cutting them into wad-sized discs. Personally I like the felt because it also acts as a spacer to help seat the ball closer to the top of the chamber.

If you're shooting a Remmie your cylinder pin will tend to foul up faster than a Colt type, so lubing your loads may help you go more shots before you need to field strip and clean.

Have fun, make smoke, and let me know how all this advice we're giving you works out.

--T
 
The way you described the cylinder clicking at half cock is exactly the way it should be...you fill the chamber before it goes into battery placing the ball atop the powder and aligning it with the loading ram, then it should click as you rotate to the next chamber you load. At full cock the cylinder clicks as the chamber goes into battery to fire. Lookin' down the barrel(unloaded)hammer at full cock you should see the center of the nipple flash hole in the center of the barrel, also the full diameter of each chamber as well.(flashlite)
Your Rem sounds like it's workin' jus' fine.
 
'Newbie' to BP

Just stumbled into this forum and am glad I did. Just acquired an NIB Uberti 1858 New Army and am studying all I can find to 'get it right'. See,s like loading the powder from the Traditions unit into the powder measure (set now for approx. 21 gr. of Pyrodex for starters) will take some hand-eye coordination. Have decided to go with Wonder Wads over powder/under ball, and am grateful for all the advice in this forum. Bought a spare Uberti cylinder and loading tool but wonder about powder 'blowin' in the wind' when reloading cylinders at the range. Any advice is welcome.
Harvey A
 
Just put it on half cock, put your powder in and the ball on top. Rotate the cylinder til it lines up with the ram and don't worry about when it clicks as long as the chamber is lined up with the bore on full cock. Monkeying with the hand trying to get it to click where you want it to for loading will throw it off on full cock. BP must be compressed. If you use light loads you must use a filler to get compression. Doesn't make any difference whether you use wads or lube over the ball just don't let any type of petroleum based lube enter the bore or chambers. Most revolvers use #10 caps but some do use #11. It's normal for the cylinder to start binding every 18 shots or so and will need the fouling cleaned off and the cylinder pin relubed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top