Loading lead cast bullets ( 230gr LRN 45acp )

Heh, sorry...
One last nugget. Though we all seek the knowledge, understanding and ability to expand what we do at the load bench, it occurs to me that if we are going THIS deep in to learning about loading cast lead and all because you ended up with 500 or 1,000 slugs that you did not want and/or have no intention of buying MORE of, hand in hand with (valid!) concerns over lead slugs...

This is nutty! :p
Close the box and put them on a low shelf. Trade them away or re-open Pandora's Box in 10-20 years.
 
There are 2 kinds of FCDs from Lee; collet for necked brass, and carbide ring for straight wall brass. 45 acp is the second kind apparently. The carbide ring does full cartridge sizing (even lee doesn't like to call it that) to correct bulging caused by bullet seated crooked.

Some handloaders take issue with full cartridge sizing, especially with cast bullets. It may deform the softer bullets. I tend to agree with that. I try to seat the bullet straight to avoid using the fcd. I find hornady seating dies do very good job, and started migrating to their products.

-TL
 
One last nugget. Though we all seek the knowledge, understanding and ability to expand what we do at the load bench, it occurs to me that if we are going THIS deep in to learning about loading cast lead and all because you ended up with 500 or 1,000 slugs that you did not want and/or have no intention of buying MORE of, hand in hand with (valid!) concerns over lead slugs...

This is nutty!
Close the box and put them on a low shelf. Trade them away or re-open Pandora's Box in 10-20 years.
Click to expand...

LOL , I hear you . That was the plan but then I started looking around at the other components I had and thought " why not at least load them to have on hand if ever needed " . I have powder I can spare , Fed primers I no longer plan to use and mixed brass just sitting around . Why not load them up .

As I'm sure you can tell . Although these rounds will not have the importance to me as other cartridges I load . I still want them to be good , safe and reliable loads non the less . That's where all the questions come in . I've never loaded lead bullets before so this line of questions is no different then any other completely new load I would start . The only real questionable thing in all this IMO is mixed brass . The rest of my questions I feel are important to me/a first time loader of lead .

Right now as it stands I'll likely do my first loads using the mixed brass and use the FCD with out the crimp . I'll just use the light swaging as the crimp . I'll also remove the Remington brass from the lot . I feel they were the least consistent case of the batch compared to the rest as a whole .
 
If those bullets were mine, I'd load 'em up - with the FCD - and have a good time shooting them. They would go nice n straight and without leading. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever. Because it would be no different than the thousands of ones I've done in the past.
 
Do you have any friends with .45s who aren't worried about cast bullets?
They would be grateful friends to get some bullets cheap to free.
 
No friends that reload but could if need be find a buyer at the local club . I'm not going to sell them though . Worst case they sit in the basement with other things I've put away . Best case I load them all up .

I do have an update . I went ahead and seated 7 rounds to run through my 1911 manually .

Head stamps were
Fiochi x 1
CCI x 1
GFL x 1
CBC x 1
PPU x 3

When seating and FCD swaging I noticed the PPU cases seated easier and had much less resistance going through the FCD . All COAL were 1.245 +/- .001 .

I then randomly loaded the mag and manually cycled all through the firearm . ALL 3 PPU cases had bullet set back the others did not . Now if I'd put a crimp on all the cases maybe the PPU's do fine but I think this was the convincing factor for me that mixing brass is not a good idea .

I've never mixed head stamps to date when reloading ( correction I do mix LC years on my AR plinking loads ) but they are still all LC brass . So it looks like I'll be going through all the cases and separating them . I'm sure over time I'll find some commonalities from head stamp to head stamp and be able to confidently mix some . How ever for now and my level of experience with hand gun brass I'll just separate the brass .

Thanks guys This thread has been very helpful to me and I hope others now or in the future

Metal
 
1.) I would use Unique. I don't have much experience with the other powders, but Unique works well with cast projectiles. HS-6, if memory serves, may be too slow-burning for good results in .45 ACP. If the manufacturers publish data for a particular powder in a particular cartridge, the odds are that it is SAFE to use, though it may not give you stellar results.

2.) I rarely sort cases. If I was shooting Bull'seye competition, I'd probably sort cases by headstamp, but it might do nothing more than make me feel better. The dimensional specs on the .45 ACP brass tend to be pretty constant, wherever it is made, and it usually takes a match-grade pistol in a machine rest to determine any meaningful difference between one make and another.

If you expect to use this ammunition for things OTHER than high-precision match competition, you don't have to sort. I shoot a fair amount of action pistol, falling plate, and bowling pin competition, and don't go out of my way to sort brass. When I DID scrupulously sort brass, my scores didn't improve. Paying close attention to overall length, charge weight variations, and projectile weight variations will influence accuracy more than case sorting. If, after all of these other factors have been well and truly set, THEN sort cases.

3.) What has been said about taper-crimping is correct. Generally, if enough crimp is used in the .45, it works fine. If MORE than enough crimp is used, it STILL works the same, though velocity fluctuations may flatten out a bit. I HAVE shot .45 ACP with 230gr. LRN with a very heavy crimp, loaded for a revolver, through my 1911A1, and the pistol didn't seem to care. If in doubt, I think you are safer to err on the side of too much rather than not enough crimp.

Years ago, just to see if I could tell a difference, I bought a taper crimp die from Redding(?) to see if crimping my ammo in a separate step, with a die designed to do nothing else, would improve accuracy. At 25 yards from a sandbagged rest, my groups went from 3" to a little less than 2.25" on average (best 9 of 10 5-shot groups). Meaningless for IDPA, falling plates, bowling pins, defense or plinking, but a big deal for precision shooting. I still keep the die handy, for when I have the time to use it.

4.) I've never annealed a pistol or revolver case in 42 years of shooting. But I hasten to add that all my handguns shoot straight-cased cartridges, except one, for which I've yet to reload at all.

Someone replied with a message roughly approximating "Keep it simple, and don't over think it.", which is probably the best advice. The "in-depth" considerations you are examining are hardly useless, but can usually be set aside until keeping it simple does NOT yield desired results. If this occurs, THEN start looking at the more in-depth stuff. It never hurts to investigate more deeply into such matters, especially if there's some serendipitous gain. But for most of your shooting, you're not likely to need to do it.
 
Thanks Kosh ,

Update : I started separating the brass and quickly had 13 different head stamps and that does not include the Win & Fed I already sorted out . Now that's just silly , at this rate I'll not have enough of one brand to load one full box of ammo .

Because of this and the results of some of my other test . I started measuring the case wall thickness . I've not done a lot but the Rem & PPU seem to be close in size . Right around .010 . That seems to confirm why I got the lightness in the seating and crimping with those two cases . Many of the others are around .011 . So now I'll see if I get some consistency with mixed brass that have the same wall thickness . If so I'll go that rout .

Yea Yea KISS :rolleyes: I'm in to deep to stop now :D

Can anyone else confirm the Lee FCD is a taper crimp die ?? Based on what I saw when I look it apart . That's how I'd describe it but don't really know the true definition of taper crimp .
 
For generic go bang, and put holes in paper loads mixed brass will work just fine. I sort out the small primer, and AMERC brass. Small primer goes into the coffee can for later. AMERC goes the return to range scrap barrel late on can.
 
Just got this off the Lee website

While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.

The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need.
Click to expand...

Not sure if that means the 45 has a taper crimp but at least I know it's NOT a roll crimp .
 
If the Lee factory crimp carbide die is a taper crimp die, in the 45acp set I purchased, than I own two taper dies, as I bought a separate taper crimp die. :^)

The Lee factory crimp carbide die that came in my set had a carbide ring on the bottom. The taper die is just that. A taper die. No ring, no sizing. Whether the fcd that came with my set is a taper die or not, I don't know as I have never used it. One thing for sure, if your fcd has the carbide sizing ring, it is sizing the whole case. If the bullets were over sized enough, which is common in lead, causing a wider than normal flare and case mouth, it swages down the bulet if the die is standard size .451. And it is.

If your gun requires a .451 lead bullet, all is good. If not, it could be problems, depending on several variables. I'd do as suggested and load some, shoot them and see just how accurate they are. There are far to many people on cast boolits that have addressed these problems for them to be paper fallacy. You'll just have to see for yourself. But, a properly sized and loaded lead bullet can haul the mail and, do so without leading. Just as accurate as any jacketed round and, a whole lot cheaper to boot. God Bless
 
Last edited:
Hmm.. I don't know. The carbide ring is right at the mouth of the die. What is that stem at top for then? Isn't it for adjusting the crimp? So the fcd does both full cartridge resizing and crimping. Since it cannot possibly be roll crimp, it should have narrowed things down.

I own 2 of them too.

-TL
 
The Lee factory crimp carbide die that came in my set had a carbide ring on the bottom. The taper die is just that. A taper die. No ring, no sizing.
Click to expand...


Quote from Lee
there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die;
Click to expand...

Yes the adjustment knob on the to is to adjust the crimp .

I also e-mailed Lee and asked what crimp the 45acp FCD actually gives and can I use the FCD on lead bullets .
 
OK Lee has not replied yet but since we were talking crimp I thought I show you all something and get your take .

I tested 3 different crimp strengths using the FCD and Hornady's 200gr XTP bullets . Which would you think is a good crimp and do any look to light or heavy ?

Bsfz1W.jpg


I had a thread about these bullets and Longshot powder . I was getting confusing results in velocity . First few load charges went up as expected but then when I was getting closer to max ( not real close just close compared to minimum ) I started getting real high velocities . 200fps faster then I should . I'm still not sure what was going on there but I started testing my crimp and if I was getting any bullet set back on an unrelated issue .

I likely had my bullets crimped somewhere in between the first two left to right when testing that load . Well I just did some chambering test loading one in the mag and releasing the slide from the locked open position

ALL 3 off those bullets in pic had bullet set back of at least .005 each time they were chambered . Now that one on the right felt when crimping heavy and looks like a heavy crimp to me and it was set back .005 when I chambered it . What is up with that ?

Do they really need a heavier crimp then the one on the right . I did use the FCD
 
The following are my opinions and should NOT be considered fact or gospel truth, but just how I see it:

--of the three crimps shown, the best one is the LEAST visible one and if it's me, gimme HALF of what is shown. Again, a taper crimp in .45 is NOT supposed to be "locking" the bullet in to place, this round headspaces on the case mouth. If you want to crimp .45cal bullets, get a .45 Colt revolver.

--200fps increase sounds very VERY much like chrono or operator error and 5 one-thousands setback is, for useful purpose... ZERO setback or sloppy dial caliper use.

200 fps difference in a .45 ACP load?!
That's arguably 25% increase in speed. That is... not normal.
 
I agree with Sevens on the chrono results.

I also agree I like the left the best and, would prefer even less. I hate crimping a bullet!!!!!! I don't know if the set back is due to COL or what but, I'd check that first. I'd say you'd seat them a bit deeper, that will stop.

And, all three of those crimps are heavy for lead bullets. When crimping lead .452 bullets, you are just looking to remove the case mouth flare you created with the flare die. That's it. Don't over flare and they won't set back unless they are seated to shallow.

I realize those are plated bullets but, the same applies.

All this is my experience and, has worked well for me. God Bless
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top