Loading lead bullets in 30-30 ????

[Mike / Tx]

Ok so just gonna throw this into the mix. Several years back I was in a similar position with these same bullets only loading for a Ruger Compsct in .308. After a lot of reading I set out to try two powders, H4895, and Red Dot.

I chose the H4895 due to being able to drop the charges down to reduced loads, and the Red Dot due to CE Harris The Load. Both seemed to get me where I wanted to go, but after starting with the H4895 I never got around to the Red Dot.

Following the Reduced Load document from Hodgdon, I started out at the lowest end and after bumping up a charge or two was getting 1" groups at 50yds. Moving out to 100 they easily stayed under 2" which I thought was great. These initially were simply to give my 3 grandsons an easy shooting practice load. That said, I would have had no issues using them for deer or hogs up close like 50yds less.

Anyway either of those are a decent option IF you can get hands on the powders.

Hope that helps.

 

[44 AMP]

I've only been reloading about 10 years or so and never have I used my seating die to crimp any bullet .

That's your choice, of course. I've been loading since the early 70s, I've been set up to load over 30 different rifle and pistol rounds ranging from .22 Hornet to .458 Win Mag.

With the exception of a taper crimp die for .45acp, one for 9mm Luger and one for .44AMP, everything I crimp gets crimped with the seater die. Often in one step, seat and crimp, but not always.

Our situations are not alike in another way, after some years, I gave up on using progressive presses, and went back to the single stage press.

I don't load any cast bullets in .30 cal currently, though I have in the past and still have some in my components. I don't even have an "M" die set up for .30cal. I do for several other calibers, just not ,30 cause I haven't needed to use one in .30 for ages. And, were i to return to loading lead bullets in .30 caliber, I probably wouldn't go out and buy a .30 expander for my M die, right away. What I would try, first would be to see if I could get the SMALL amount of mouth flare needed to prevent shaving lead off the bullet when seating, with my .32ACP expander. (I have not tried this, as I have no need so far but specs say it should work, .32acp bullets are not ,32 caliber they are .311" nominal) I would try this because I HAVE the .32acp die already. If I didn't, I'd order the .30 for the M die first.

For what you are doing, why are you worried about crimp, anyway? You said you're shooting them from a bolt gun (box magazine, yes??) and if so you don't NEED to crimp them. You can, done right it doesn't hurt, (done wrong, it does!!!) but you don't NEED a crimp in a bolt action box magazine .30-30.

Besides my Marlin 336 I have a Contender in .30-30 and for the rifle, I ALWAYS crimp, but for the single shot pistol, I don't bother. AND, sometimes I load bullets into the single shot that aren't made to be crimped (or used in tubular magazines).

To me, adding a die to expand the case mouth for lead slugs is enough extra work, why add even more with a die just for crimping when the regular seater die handles that job just fine??

 

[mehavey]

44... for cast bullets, I find a secure roll crimp makes for (more) consistent ignition when bullet seated short of lands.
(obviously in application to things thhat don't headspace on the mouth)

 

[44 AMP]

44... for cast bullets, I find a secure roll crimp makes for (more) consistent ignition when bullet seated short of lands.
(obviously in application to things thhat don't headspace on the mouth)

You might possibly be right, I don't know. Every bullet I've ever seated in anything has been short of the lands. And, intentionally so!

And, I don't know how you are measuring or defining "more consistent ignition", either.

I know that a proper roll crimp absolutely helps when loading certain powders, with both cast and Jacketed bullets.

And I know that I have never noticed inconsistent ignition from my handloads using cast bullets in cases that headspace on the case mouth. (mostly 9mm Luger and .45acp), including when I shoot .45acp brass and lead bullets and it doesn't headspace on the case mouth.

 

[mehavey]

I ran a 45-70 session (Cast 405/5744) at the range a couple of years ago where I couldn't
figure out why I was 100+ fps off known velocity, and plus/minus 35-40 fps.

Read my notes and remembered I'd run off w/o the usual crimp.

Took the remaining cartridges back through the press an -- voila -- back to normal.
Since then I've made it regular practice to use at least a half-turn roll crimp in anything cast.
postscript: I regularly take my heavy Postells to engage the lands in my single-shots,
slip-fit into the case against the BP. No problemmo.

The mouth-headspacer rifles are different as you point out. There my BeoWoof, Legend,
etc do just fine w/o anything other than neck retention/taper.

Go figure.

 

[Unclenick]

If you like the roll crimp in 45-70, you will probably love what the Redding Profile Crimp die dies for it. It roll-crimps like a standard seating die's crimp shoulder does, but leads up to the roll crimp shoulder with a partial taper crimp. What that does is trap the sides of the case while the roll crimp is formed. This lets you apply a much harder roll crimp because it prevents the sharp bend at the case mouth from causing the sides of the case below the crimp from being pulled off the sides of the bullet, as shown in the image on the far right, below.

As to the collet crimp, the ridge on the lip of the crimping collet in the Lee die is not very wide and it is located right up at the case mouth (if you keep within normal trim-to lengths). For this reason, if you simply set your seating depth so your bullet's crimp groove is level with the case mouth, the Factory Crimp Die's crimp won't deform the bullet, as its collet finger lip is just pushing the brass into the crimp groove space and not deforming the bullet.

As to the M-die, the main advantage it presents as compared to a conventional flare is that it forms a step that lets the bullet sit straight upright when you place it in the case mouth. This results in it entering the seating die straight which prevents the seating ram in the die from pushing down on a bullet cocked at an angle in the case mouth. This significantly reduces cartridge runout. How much that runout matters to your group size will vary with bullet bearing surface length and muzzle rpm, but it never hurt anything to have concentric rounds, so I see it as another variable eliminator.

 

[Metal god]

Lee seems to believe there collet crimp dies don’t require a crimp grove . In fact they seem to say not having a crimp grove with not effect the round at all .

No other crimping system can apply as secure a crimp as the Lee collet style Factory Crimp. No crimping groove required in jacketed or cast bullets, the die is so powerful it will form a crimp groove if one is not present.

Ok they don't say it will not effect the round but do hint that it forms a crimp groove for you . Does that mean a concentric groove IDK but based on how they work , my guess is that it will be as concentric as your case mouth/neck wall thickness .

 

[44 AMP]

the die is so powerful it will form a crimp groove if one is not present.

This is advertizing bullspit. (or, as Cmmdr Clement would say "what we in the Royal Navy call, a lie!")

I don't have a LEE FCD, don't pretend to know how it works but I don't need to know that to know that the statement about "die power" is false.

Dies HAVE NO POWER.

Its the press (and you) that do the work and provide ALL the power involved. Literally, the die does nothing but just sit there.

And, I can tell you from personal experience that the regular roll crimp shoulder in ordinary seating dies can create a crimp in bullets where there is no groove or cannelure, IF the bullet is soft enough. If it isn't you still get a bit of crimp, but what you also get is a buckled case neck or collapsed case shoulder.
If you doubt me, feel free to try it. Worst case is you waste a case or two. But sometimes such a screwup is recoverable.

Take a .30-30 and seat a bullet so there is no groove for the case mouth to crimp into. Back off the seating stem and then screw down the die so it gives a good hard crimp, and crimp the case. See what results you get. With a "soft" lead bullet it might form a good crimp and nothing else, or it might not. With a jacketed bullet the most likely result is you will get some crimp into the jacket and the case neck will buckle, bulging out, (sometimes a couple or even 3 spots, enough to prevent chambering the round. I've done it.

You can recover the bullet using an inertia puller and then you can resize the case and that usually returns it to a usable condition. Usually.

Point here is that Lee is feeding you wolf tickets about the "power" of its die, and that other dies can do the same thing IF the right conditions exist.

Other point is that if you use a die crimp shoulder (or, I would assume a collet do the same) to create a crimp groove, you are compressing BOTH the bullet AND the case. Both of which are different materials with different amounts of elasticity and "spring back", which can result in a situation where your crimp is crap, because you squashed the bullet which doesn't spring back as much as the brass case does.

Not a big deal in some situations (like close range, low power revolver rounds) but potentially a much different thing in a different situation.

Use bullets that have a groove and crimp in the groove, IF for some strange reason you can't do that, PROCEED WiTH CAUTION if you do try and crimp. With just the right combination of bullet and crimp things can work out. But the rest of the time...not so much..

 

[mehavey]

regular roll crimp shoulder in ordinary seating dies can create a crimp in bullets where there
is no groove or cannelure, IF the bullet is soft enough. If it isn't you still get a bit of crimp, but
what you also get is a buckled case neck

That only happens if your are crimping and seating in the same step outside the crimp groove.
If you seat-then-crimp separately (which you have to do w/ a Lee crimp die anyway), the
roll-crimp die just drives the ledge into the bullet directly.
No buckling.

With a crimp groove.... I just
- Screw the seating die body down to just barely short of mouth contact
- Seat to bullet to correct OAL using the seating stem--upper third of crimp groove.
- Then release the seating stem several turns to pull it off the bullet completely...
- Turn the seater body past contact 1/2 - 3/4 turn...
- Roll crimp into groove solidly...
- Turn seating stem down to meet bullet, and lock everything up firmly

One-step seating/crimping after that

 

[Metal god]

Dies HAVE NO POWER.

Its the press (and you) that do the work and provide ALL the power involved. Literally, the die does nothing but just sit there.

I believe you have a misunderstanding of how the collet crimp die works .


The die does not just sit there like a FL or seating die does . Yes it sits and is locked/screwed into the the press . However the die has an internal sleeve with the "collet" at the top of it . The bottom of the sleeve contacts the shell holder and slides up into the die body which has an internal taper at the top or the collet sleeve it self has the taper . As the press ram pushes that sleeve higher into that body it forces the top section closed resulting the collet clamping down on the case mouth at a right angle .

As I write this it occurs to me the collet crimp die likely works exactly like the collet neck sizing die with out the mandrel . Keeping that in mind yes the collet crimp die creates a significant amount of force in/onto the case mouth .

Internals of the Lee collet neck sizing die

Note how the collet neck sizing die sleeve looks a lot like the crimp die when inside the die body

223 FCD You can't take these apart like the collet neck die but my guess is the sleeves look the same .

Here are the bottoms of each die , NOTE they both have internal sleeves

This is the FCD in the press with the ram down and fully engaged respectively

Note how it actually pinches closed So yes I do believe you can say they create force . Just like you the operator of the press generates the power the press creates so to does it all work together to allow the FCD to create force .

 

[44 AMP]

Thank you for that explanation of how the collet die works.

We might wind up disagreeing on what the proper terms to use are, but as I see it, neither the dies, nor even the press creates the force. They amplify and focus via the linkage, cams, & etc. but they don't create force. The operator does that with the press handle. The leverage system can turn the force applied by your arm into a couple tons of pressure, at a specific point, but it doesn't create the force.

perhaps I was a bit overzealous, but the quote from Lee just struck me that way "our die is so powerful"... if they had said "our die focuses the power of the press so much that...." it probably wouldn't have hit one of my buttons.

 

[Metal god]

We might wind up disagreeing on what the proper terms to use are

I'm sure that is accurate , not so much that I don't know what I'm saying but rather I'm not smart enough to explain it haha . You should have seen the first draft of that last post . I proof read it and confused my self lol had to rewrite several section and it's still not right . This comes up a lot with me , I'm sure you've and I'm sure others have noticed . I know what I'm thinking and or seeing in my head is right , I just don't have the vocabulary to explain it and it comes out all bass acwards :-(

 

[44 AMP]

how does that mangled line go??

"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but what I said wasn't what I thought I meant!" or something like that...

We all do it. some are just better at it than others.

 

[Metal god]

UPDATE

I finally got around to setting up the dies in the press . Think I got everything dialed in but wanted to show you something .

The 308/30cal M-die barely fits/works in the press . I guess that means it works period but check this out .

The die is touching the shell holder and I have to screw the adjustment knob all the way down . I don't know how many threads are left to lock it down but it can't be much .

 

[mehavey]

Does it properly flare the mouth at that point?
If so, no problem.

 

[Metal god]

Yeah it works well as far as I can tell . Seems to seat straight as well but haven’t put any on the concentricity gauge yet