loading for 308

S

Shadow9mm

New member
I am looking at getting a 308 rifle and am trying to make sure I understand things correctly before I take the dive. I already load 30-06 so I have a shell holder, primers, and bullets I can use with it.

I will be using 7.62x51 brass, as I was given decent sized batch for free, that is the main reason I am looking at the caliber.

As I understand it 308 and 7.62x51 have the same external dimension, so I can use regular 308 dies (although I did see 7.62x51 dies listed)

the 7.62x51 has thicker brass and less case capacity so I will need to be conservative working my loads up.

Does this sound about right? If so I just need to track down dies and a rifle. I really debated on this, but surplus rifles were big for a longtime because of cheap ammo. And already having a good bit of the tools and supplies makes it cheap for me. Was looking at the Ruger Americans.
 
308 brass has the largest variations between makers of the calibers am loading for. Military brass is usually thicker/less volume, but there may be exceptions. Good to separate the brass by makes, if possible. Have the Redding s dies to handle the differing thickness/makes. If you resize thick and thin brass to same outside dimension, likely the thinner may have less "grip" at the neck

If all your brass is thicker, don't really need to variate how far down you resize the neck.

Not all military brass is the same, sometimes helps to specify which military brass. It also helps to pay attention to what brass is used in the manual being referenced.
 
I don't know I have cross checked 308 brass but I have 06 and I have found several brass mfg that are 20 grs heavier.

I am not sure that is not a urban legend on military heft. Once time use not intended to be reloaded (I know it is reloaded but its not like RP that makes both factory ammo and reload brass sales and no difference in their brass).

I am going to shoot hopefully this week latter and I have some military brass of a couple different mfgs to shoot up and will save the cases and weight them vs Lapua, Remington and PPU cases.

I had not seen 7.62 dies but there is a miner difference in the two the same as 223/5.56, pretty sure but you can use 308 dies but I would confirm.
 
The thicker brass less case volume is more likely with 308/7.62 brass then it is with 223/5.56 brass . Example : Winchester 308 brass seems to be a good 10gr lighter then my LC-308 brass . In fact there is some older Winchester brass out there that is 30gr lighter . A grain or two may not change internal volume much but when cases start weighing 10+ grains more or less you almost always see an internal volume difference.

Generally speaking I’d say you don’t necessarily have to be more careful loading military 308 brass . Point being is you should always start at minimum and work up . The internal case volume differences should not effect your start charge . You may however find that your max charge can’t get to the manuals max charge . That “should” not be an issue if you are working up from minimum and watching for pressure signs .

I use almost exclusively LC brass and I never have needed to start below book minimums and I usually can get to with in a half grain of most books max .

The Ruger American is a fine rifle for the price. I own one and have often outshot guys with much nicer Riggs . If you’re looking for a rifle to shoot 100 rounds per range trip the Ruger American may not be the right choice . Although very accurate it has a very thin sporter barrel which heats up and can start throwing shots . It’s also very light and although a 308 does not have a lot of recoil , after about 50 or 60 rounds It can start to get bothersome . A slightly heavier rifle could be more enjoyable on longer range days .

Yes 308 dies will work just fine and I recommend it . Depending on where you got your brass you may consider buying a small bass full length sizeing die . It’s possible that brass you acquired was shot from a very generously chambered machine gun . Which results in bloating the case more than SAAMI spec 308 Chambers do . If that’s the case you want a small bass die to squeeze the base of the case back down to dimensions that will allow smooth function in a commercial 308 chamber . I use a small bass die on all my once fired military brass on its first resizing . After that I can use a standard sizing die for every subsequent resizing .
 
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Get some 4895 and you can load it a grain or two lighter than commercial cases. You should be fine.
 
Along with what has been previously mentioned, don't forget to remove the crimp from the primer pockets.

It's tedious but its a one time thing. (and, do ensure the fired brass is Boxer primed!! Having been the NATO round for a long time now, there are LOTS of Berdan primed brass out there.

US made brass is Boxer primed. Anything else, check it! If its got 2 or 3 little flasholes, toss it in the recycle brass can.

Berdan cases can be reloaded but it takes special tools and steps and Berdan primers were scarce in the US back in times of plenty. Simply not worth the time and effort to even look. If some Berdan primers fall in your lap, put them up for sale and make some guy shooting an obsolete Kynoch round only ever made with Berdan brass, happy!

As mentioned, most "newish" US 7.62 NATO was fired from machine guns and could have been expanded quite a bit in a "generous" machine gun chamber. These cases can take noticeably more force to resize in a standard .308 die.

You may not need a small base die, depending on the rifle you're going to be loading for. Only testing will tell you that. Some guns need them, some don't. You may not need a small base die, but if you do need it, you need it!

I've been loading .308 since the early 70s, commercial brass and GI surplus, all of it sized through the Lyman .308 Win FL sizer which was the first die set I ever bought. I've run Remington & Winchester bolt guns, a Browning BLR, an FAL and an M1A all without needing a small base die. Maybe I'm just lucky..:rolleyes:

GI brass is almost always heavier than commercial, and that means some part of the case is thicker. Usually the case head but sometimes the neck or generally the whole case. Doesn't matter a lot, work up loads safely and if/when you get pressure signs, STOP! No matter what the data you are using says is max, stop if you get pressure signs and make that your max load, for that gun with those components.
 
Good points about surplus brass fired from machine gun. Bought a small batch once, and it was not worth the multiple sizings it took to get it to chamber. And it was only good for one loading.
 
Basically you are correct. I have some military brass for my 308 as well as from 4 other commercial brands. The Winchester, Remington, Hornady, and Nosler brass are close enough that I can use the same load data in all of them. I still keep the brass separate and load in batches.

For example I may load 155 gr target loads with Winchester, 150 gr hunting loads with Remington, 165 gr hunting loads in the Hornady brass, etc.

If using different brass you need to work up loads independently for that brass. Even though I've determined that I can use the same load data safely in my rifles with all of the above listed brass I started out low and worked up with each type of brass before I determined so.

I found that I couldn't use the same load data with military brass, or Federal brass. I'm about 1-2 gr less powder in that brass to get the same speeds I get with the others. I only had a handful or Federal brass so I just stopped using it. But I have quite a bit military brass that I do use.

In a nutshell you really need to experiment. Start low and work up, having a chronograph helps. You'll find that you're at a max load with a little less powder in military brass. If you never go over mid level loads it probably won't matter. The same powder charge in military brass will be a bit faster, but if you're no where near max loads it won't be dangerous.
 
Bought a set of RCBS small base dies. The military brass was most likely fired out of a machine gun, I will have to ask to be sure. I am expecting all the brass to be all LC, so there should not be beridan primers.

I am familiar with crimp removal and can do small and large rifle. I have don't mostly 223 with a few 30-06. Its not fun, but at least its a one time deal for the life of the casings.

I do have a chrono, and will be working up things from the starting loads on the conservative side.
 
What type of rifle and what type of shooting do you plan on? For long range if loading hot the Lapua Palma, Peterson or Alpha brass. For a AR that will beat the brass up the lake city cannot be beat. For general plinking at short to mid range almost anything will do. Like other said the volume can alter quite a bit, work up the load accordingly or do case volume checks. Just becasue a load shoots well in one type of brass it does not mean it will shoot well in another.

For long range I preferred the 155.5's and Varget for mid range 168 SMK's or Nosler CC's with CCI 200's and 4064 using weighed charges. For general plinking with a AR I liked 155 with metered BLC2.

For a bolt gun to duplicate the Federal Gold Medal Match load use Federal brass, Federal 210 primers, on top of 41.0 IMR4064 with the 168 SMK. It is a mild load, easy on the brass and shoulder and it shoots great. Hodgon's start load is 41.5 so you don't even need to work this one up EDIT- I worked this up with a 30 inch barrel, you may need to tweak the powder some

308 is a versatile cartridge, enjoy
 
Size the brass in the standard die the first time if you have one. It is easier. Then use the small base die if that didn't get it down to size. If you feel a case giving you extra resistance on the press handle as you resize, stop and withdraw it, as it may be about to stick. Re-lube it and try again. If it still feels harder than the rest, I would just pitch it as it is likely to have more spring-back than the rest, so even if you do get it resized it will be bigger than the others.

Since you have a chronograph, one way to compare the effect of case differences is to look at the average velocity different headstamps produce with the same load. If two headstamps produce the same average and the same velocity SD when loaded the same way, they are interchangeable in your rifle for firing purposes. But also look to see if one groups better than the other. If it does, you'll probably want to keep it aside for your best efforts at a match.
 
Unclenick said:
Size the brass in the standard die the first time if you have one. It is easier. Then use the small base die if that didn't get it down to size. If you feel a case giving you extra resistance on the press handle as you resize, stop and withdraw it, as it may be about to stick. Re-lube it and try again. If it still feels harder than the rest, I would just pitch it as it is likely to have more spring-back than the rest, so even if you do get it resized it will be bigger than the others.

Since you have a chronograph, one way to compare the effect of case differences is to look at the average velocity different headstamps produce with the same load. If two headstamps produce the same average and the same velocity SD when loaded the same way, they are interchangeable in your rifle for firing purposes. But also look to see if one groups better than the other. If it does, you'll probably want to keep it aside for your best efforts at a match.
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Yes, they were fired out of a MG. He said they were all on belts.

Good thing I bought the small base die first. They will go through that first. I have small base sized 223, and full length sized 30-06, so it should not be too terrible.

I am using a lanolin case lube, and have my lubing process down to a science. 1 layer deep in a gallon ziplock bag, few squirts of lube, shake them around, dump them out, let them dry. Have not had a stuck case yet using this method. I have stuck 223 and 30-06 prior to this method. non since i started doing it this way.

I am expecting the same headstamp, all LC. It is USGI surplus brass from a relative that is in the Military. Its on the up and up. They have been waiting over 1 year for the recycling people to come and pick up brass and are up to their ears in in brass with no place to store it. He was told to get rid of it, by whatever means necessary, I think they had been tossing it in the garbage just to get rid of it. He was kind enough to ask if I could use some brass since I reload. He's saving me the 9mm, 5.56, and 7.62. Last time I talked to him he said he had 140lb of brass for me, with more on the way. something about one unit shooting 10,000 rnds a month, and another unit having 1650,000 rnds on their account that they "need to shoot off"

NO I wont be selling any. Just taking what I need/can use for myself.
 
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This is clearly just a preference but I feel using a small bass die on military brass on their first resizing is just simpler in the long run . Meaning there will be no guesswork if they work in your rifle afterwards then you’re good to go if they don’t well there’s nothing much more you’re gonna be able to do . It’s a one and done thing I don’t like the idea of sizing them once seeing if they work if they don’t sizing them again in a different die . I work in large batches and sizing them once takes me long enough I don’t feel like doubling that amount of time . Also just because the first 10 or 20 size fine in a standard die doesn’t mean all 1500 will , again just my opinion and my process

I do something similar with mixed brass when I have large lots of commercial and military brass all mixed together . Instead of separating them all out so I know which ones will need the primer crimp removed . I just swage them all Because I can swage them just as fast as I can look and separate them . Why handle them twice if I’m going to have to pick each individual one up and look at it anyways why not just pick it up and swage it without even looking . I should add that this is when I’m processing 1000+ cases at a time . I’m just not gonna go and look at every single headstamp in those instances . I can even separate them that way the ones that don’t need swaging you can tell because the cases with no crimp just slips in and out freely compared to the ones that need the primer crimp removed . I can just toss them in separate buckets then.
 
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Yes, they were fired out of a MG. He said they were all on belts.
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I don't doubt "surplus" GI 7.62NATO brass was fired from machine guns. The US hasn't had a 7.62 NATO rifle since we adopted the M16 and retired the M14.

AND, while small numbers of M14s have been reworked and issued in recent years as DMR/Sniper rifles, they aren't producing quantities of brass, and even if they were, its likely it would be dumped in with the MG fired brass anyway,

"all on belts"...hmm that means one of two things, either bored GIs assembling the fired brass and links into belts for something to do, or being ordered to do that as a make-work or a punishment detail.

The cases and the links come out of the gun separately, so if you're getting fired brass in linked belts somebody spent some painful finger busting time putting them back together, and you'll have to take them apart, but linked belts do make handling easier than quantities of loose brass.
 
44 AMP said:
I don't doubt "surplus" GI 7.62NATO brass was fired from machine guns. The US hasn't had a 7.62 NATO rifle since we adopted the M16 and retired the M14.

AND, while small numbers of M14s have been reworked and issued in recent years as DMR/Sniper rifles, they aren't producing quantities of brass, and even if they were, its likely it would be dumped in with the MG fired brass anyway,

"all on belts"...hmm that means one of two things, either bored GIs assembling the fired brass and links into belts for something to do, or being ordered to do that as a make-work or a punishment detail.

The cases and the links come out of the gun separately, so if you're getting fired brass in linked belts somebody spent some painful finger busting time putting them back together, and you'll have to take them apart, but linked belts do make handling easier than quantities of loose brass.
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I thin he meant that's how they came packaged, or were when he issued them out. Loose now from what he said.
 
So you are saying he meant they were fired from belts. I don't know any sniper rifle that uses a belt. It would probably make the manual bolt operation hard, so a machinegun it was. The only better way to resize those fatties is a roll-sizer, but not many handloaders have one.
 
As to differences between .308 Winchester and 7.62 X 51 NATO. The below spread sheet reflects 10 cartridges each of Remington Peters, Winchester, WCC10, LC 13 and Federal. The WCC 10 and LC 13 being military brass. The cartridges were just pulled at random from larger lots. The GI brass was all machine gun fired. The reason I surmise machine gun is because the stuff measures about 1.642" case head to shoulder datum. Considering 1.630" nominal the 1.642" is a good indicator the stuff was machine gun fired.

Several years ago I bought maybe 10,000 cases between a member here and Brass Bombers and most of it is WCC 10. While I have a small base die I just run the stuff through my standard RCBS dies looking to get it back to 1.630" and that will chamber easily in any of several .308 guns I have. Anyway, the below gives an overall indication of the difference between GI brass and commercial brass. All of the brass was cleaned and sized and primers removed. The outside dimensions on all of it were identical.

Case%20Volume.png


Looking at the numbers I doubt any difference would matter as to load data GI verse commercial. This was all done maybe 3 years ago. I generally run GI brass through about five loadings and toss it. The WCC 10 has been really great stuff.

No clue why but my image failed to show. Here is a link to the image I referenced.

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Case Volume.png

The image is mine as is the domain it is hosted on.

Ron
 
Yep, that stuff changes over time. The averages represent about a one-grain difference in water capacity. I have some older Winchester with another grain more capacity. I have some ADG with less. The weight differences don't correspond well to water capacity differences partly because the different makers use different alloys with different densities but mainly because dimension tolerances for the head allow a variation of about 7 grains in case weight for 70:30 brass, all without changing the powder space. The government and Winchester use 70:30 brass. The 80:20 brass used by Remington and Federal is about 1.6% more dense.
 
Not all 308 machine gun chambers are the same size, and not all 308 dies size to the same spec. But you should remember Uncle Nick's advise to use a standard die first. Especially if the cases are swelled to any degree. The sb dies were not designed to size down excessively swelled brass from machine guns. Never hurts to try (not too much anyway), cause ya never know.

Even with standard dies, i had to size down the mg brass in several steps using the standard dies, before using the sb die to get the brass to chamber. Got one firing before incipient case head separation line appeared. From actual experience, not guessing by reading the internet. There may be good reason the brass is being given away, especially in these times.

Brass from a HK 91 can have similar situation resulting from the action type, but not to as severe a degree. Again, actual experience.
 
Good stuff and important stuff from Unclenick. All brass is not created equal. There will not always be a correlation between weight and volume. Overall I have always loaded GI brass the same as I load commercial brass.

Just make sure after sizing several they easily chamber in whatever rifle you plan to shoot them in. :)

Ron
 
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