Loaded magazine question 9mm

That brings to mind that my brother found a way to convert his ar from 5.56 to 9mm, don't remember, don't care how, the point is that he found army surplus sten mags that went back what, at least forty years and maybe as far back as sixty or farther, but those sten mags are what were specified for the hi capacity magazines for his conversion. They weren't stowed loaded, but the fact remains that when he cleaned and used them, the steel in the springs was still functional and they ran flawlessly.

Those alloys are held together by molecular bonds that are very, very difficult to break, and in many cases, those bonds require enormous amounts of energy. We can easily break down water with just a nine volt battery, but trust me, the actual amount of energy needed to break down a significant amount of water is enormous.

Steel is bound together by a bessemer furnace at thousands of degrees, and it takes a lot of force to damage the actual bonds. The flexibility is a different issue altogether. Unless you wind up with flaws in the steel or in the treatment that binds those molecules, those bonds will hold through any normal treatment.
 
Steel is bound together by a bessemer furnace at thousands of degrees, and it takes a lot of force to damage the actual bonds. The flexibility is a different issue altogether. Unless you wind up with flaws in the steel or in the treatment that binds those molecules, those bonds will hold through any normal treatment.
And yet, if the spring does not get the correct heat treatment, it is just a pliable wire, not a spring.
 
Wolff Springs has an FAQ on the topic. Myself I will change magazine spring every five years on those few double stack magazines that I leave loaded all the time. Cheap insurance.

https://www.gunsprings.com/index.php?page=FAQ#question5

5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably.
 
Remember- Wolff SELLS springs.
It wouldn't do them much good to tell you that springs generally don't wear out. Instead, they tell you that changing them is a good practice to prevent problems.
Read between the lines- and take it with a grain of salt.
 
I recall Jeff Cooper writing that he saw a 38 Super magazine that had been loaded in 1929 work fine after over fifty years. Conversely W. E. Fairbairn recommended firing duty magazines every three months.
 
My grandfather bought a Smith&Wesson 659 in the early 80's and kept two magazines loaded until 2012 when he gifted it to me. Both magazines still work perfectly.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Remember- Wolff SELLS springs.
It wouldn't do them much good to tell you that springs generally don't wear out. Instead, they tell you that changing them is a good practice to prevent problems.
Read between the lines- and take it with a grain of salt.

Same old routine, Bill? You always revert to form when the subject of springs comes up -- and you always slam Wolff Springs. (Never say anything bad about other firms, like ISMI, who also sell springs.) If factory mag springs are so great why do people ever need to buy replacement springs? And why do firms like Wilson use Wolff springs as their OEM springs for their custom guns? You seem to be saying the people just buy springs because they've been sold a bill of goods and buy they for no reason? They don't really need them, or they're foolish enough to buy guns with crappy springs.

In their FAQ area, Wolff Springs tells folks to download hi-cap mags a round or two when they've being stored for long periods -- as downloading them will extend spring life. Wolff talks about a spring's elastic limit -- and how, if you go beyond that limit, the spring material can degrade.

If Wolff's intent is to sell more springs, seems as though they just say "load'em up and store them." That's NOT what they do. They're actually selling fewer springs than they could. We've had a bunch of long discussions on this topic here, and some of the folks who participated are engineers very familiar with the topic. At least one metallurgist took part in these discussions.

JohnKSa, a member of TFL staff, did some long term tests here a while back, and you were involved in discussions about those tests. Here's a link: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6005156#post6005156 His tests showed real-world degradation that happened relatively quickly... but he also noted that the mags continue to work. (I don't know if he continued the tests beyond the last data shown in the link.)

New springs WILL take an immediate set when first put to work. Spring designers know this. Buy a new Glock mag and you'll experience it first hand, when you feel you need a hydraulic press to load the last few rounds in a Glock 17 mag. It gets better over time, as the springs lose a bit of their resistance.

Springs ALSO degrade if they are pushed to or beyond their elastic limits. Cycling a spring won't always or necessarily wear a spring out -- unless, when the spring is cycled, it's compressed too deeply. Some mag designs prevent that, others use extra-deep compression to provide extra capacity.

On the other hand, if you have some 17-(or higher) round high-cap mags and never load more than 15-rounds in them, those springs might last as long as 7-round 1911 mag springs. But if you keep those mags fully loaded while carrying or storing them, you MIGHT see some failures sooner than you'd expect. It'll will depend on the spring and mag design, and all mags are not designed to perform in the same way.

SIGSHR said:
I recall Jeff Cooper writing that he saw a 38 Super magazine that had been loaded in 1929 work fine after over fifty years. Conversely W. E. Fairbairn recommended firing duty magazines every three months.

Jeff Cooper and W.E. Fairbairn probably weren't much into hi-cap mags, and double-stack (hi-cap) .45 were NOT really all that common until Faribairn was dead and Cooper was much less active as a shooter or instructor.

Competitors, who make their living with their guns probably will likely change springs more often -- having learned the downside of not doing so. (A lot of them probably changed springs without needing to, but they viewed it as cheap insurance.)

Magazine spring life didn't become a big concern until hi-capacity mags became available and popular. Most mags for older guns were designed so that the springs were NOT compressed all that far. The original 1911 mag was designed to hold 7 rounds, and those mag springs would last for decades when left fully loaded. But when the first 8-round mags for 1911s didn't perform as intended -- the mags failed far more quickly and frequently than expected.
 
Hermit, that was included in the very section that you quoted, didn't you see the p art about treatment? Steel is a magnificent thing.
 
Walt-
I said nothing bad about Wolff. They make good springs.
I will say that most people who buy recoil and magazine springs don't need them.
The only ones I have needed in 45 or so years were because of corrosion, and one gun was in a fire.
 
In any case, Bill, what other company are you going to use for an example? I've been trying for an entire day to think of any other company that makes and sells replacement magazine springs. If anyone asked me about replacement springs, all I could say is "well, there's a company named coyote or something..."
 
I bet Cooper's Super was a 9 round with plenty of spring steel and room for it.

I figure an occasional mag dump was about all the practice those Hong Kong cops got, even under Fairbairn.
And they only loaded six rounds condition 3.

The other magazine spring company is ISMI.
 
[QUOTE I figure an occasional mag dump was about all the practice those Hong Kong cops got, even under Fairbairn.
And they only loaded six rounds condition 3.][/QUOTE]

The loading 6 rounds for all handguns, was commonality of round count.
After 6 reload. Most of us can count to 6.

An other discovery, by that group. It was natural to crouch, under stress.

After a raid on an opium den, in the dark, the squad proceeded down a narrow alley. Coming back, in daylight, this same group of Police Officers walked into cloths lines, stretched across this back alley. "Who puts clothes lines up at 6am"

Answer, no one, under extreme stress, all the Officers crouch! And did.
 
The world is not often black and white. It tends to be grey areas and people don't like that complication. James K has the most likely correct response that everyone is both right and wrong at the same time, because both answers are correct. It depends on the quality.
I left a surplus AK mag loaded for a year and it was jam-o-matic.
I left a Walther PPS mag loaded for a year and no problems.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Remember- Wolff SELLS springs.
It wouldn't do them much good to tell you that springs generally don't wear out. Instead, they tell you that changing them is a good practice to prevent problems.
Read between the lines- and take it with a grain of salt.

What's the implied message here? Others here might want to read Wolff's FAQ page. Here's a link: https://www.gunsprings.com/FAQ

What does Wolff really say about spring replacement? They DON'T ADVOCATE REGULAR SPRING REPLACEMENT. They say that some do it. It's less black and white than you imply. I added the the underlining and bolding -- and keep those emphasized those points in mind, as you read.

These excerpts are from the Wolff FAQ page:

The performance of your gun is the best indicator of when a spring needs to be replaced. Factors such as increased ejection distance, improper ejection and/or breeching, lighter hammer indents on primers, misfires, poor cartridge feeding from magazines, frequent jams, stove pipes and other malfunctions are all possible indications of fatigued springs or improper springs.

Springs such as magazine springs, striker springs and recoil springs are subjected to higher stress levels and will require more frequent replacement than other lower stressed springs such as firing pin springs and hammer springs.​

The Wolff FAQ page then specifically addresses MAG SPRINGS:

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably.​

I've never been enthusiastic about regular replacement of mag springs, but I do try to shoot any guns that are kept fully loaded on a regular basis to assure proper function. Rotating mags, advocated by some, does nothing to prolong spring life -- it just spreads the wear over a larger collection of springs. When I see a mag starting to be less reliable, I use a backup mag, replace the spring in the failing mag, and make it a backup mag.

Wolff wants to sell springs, but they aren't exactly saying that springs need to be changed like engine oil -- every 3000 miles, along with a new filter. They tell you which springs are most likely to need replacement (recoil, mag) but even then they say spring life depends on the gun and how the gun is used. They say, in effect, shoot the gun and watch for performance changes.

Your implied message has consistently been that only inferior springs fail -- and in a number of your responses in many "spring discussion" here on TFL, you've made that point directly, not just by implication.

.
 
Which is why magazine vendors recommend leaving new magazines loaded a while so the springs will "set" and you can get them in the gun with that 8th, 10th, 19th round?
 
Walt- I don't wish to get into a p-ssing match with you.
Most people replace springs because they think they are supposed to. They aren't.
Most people who replace springs don't need to.
Some springs are now designed to be sacrificial. The owner's manual should tell you if yours are.
My contention is that properly designed and made springs do not usually wear out- unless corroded, detempered, or over stressed past their elastic limit.
I have no problem with Wolff springs. I buy my incidental springs from them.
Of course-these are my opinions- but I make a LOT of springs.
 
Aren't you also a metalurgist? Machining and heat treating a number of different steels certainly qualifies you as experienced.
 
No, I'm not a metallurgist.
I'm a cutler-specializing in the restoration of antique switchblades-among other things. I also make leaf springs for guns.
I do have plenty of experience with springs.
 
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