Live fire U.S.S. Wisconsin

armoredman

We are not talking about one or two Exocets, we are talking HUNDREDS. The USS Stark was lucky, only one missile detonated, the seas were calm, AND there was no second strike against her. Last I heard Iran was stocking up on anti-ship missiles.

Anti-armor warheads are not new technology. Current missiles would make short work of any ship armored or not. Sure the hull might be protected, but the suprestructure would be a flaming mess after a dozen or so Exocets. As near as I can find, Exocets are rather cheap, only about a million each vs a billion dollar ship.
 
Seeing that video, it brought to mind how our fighting men in the big wars found themselves able and determined to use the .30~'06 and .308 rifles. After seeing those Naval guns, your MBR would feel very much to be an extension of that same effect.
Yes, Battleships were designed to engage each-other, and prevail. No missile built by anyone can match the power of that 2,700 lb. armor piercing round. At Cubi Pt. on Luzon, there's still a Japanese bunker that sustained a hit from one that worked. The crater is a good 100 feet across, and the shell poked that 30 foot thickness of reinforced concrete clear thru.
I stood on that same spot on the Missouri when she was in the boneyard at Bremerton in '84, along with some other historic megaliths, like the Chicago and Hornet. Those ships are all from a different era. What we have now is different at so many levels that no comparison can be made, and the BB's are just plain obsolete. Too big and heavy and slow. I left the Navy just as the CG-47 class was coming online. That was a long time ago, but consider a Cruiser that can turn 180 degrees in its' own length, at flank speed, and complete an entire mission with no humans on board.
 
Good thread on battleship's main battery. Here's some other stuff about 'em.....

Firing: two methods were used; electrical and percussion. A blank-type case about the size of a .45-70 one was inserted in the firing lock in the breech plug after closing the plug on a loaded barrel. It was called a lock-combination primer as it had squibs like a dynamite electric blasting cap as well as a primer the same as the old .45-70 used.

Electric firing was done in either main battery plot or the turret's control room. Closing the firing key sent electricity to the squib in in the case detonating it which made the powder in it shoot through a hole in the plug face into the pound of black powder at the back end of each 110 pound bag of powder. When electric fire was used, a slight delay between each barrel's firing time was made automatically so projectiles would be spaced several yards in range preventing them from "kissing" each other and bouncing off in some wierd direction.

Percussion firing was made by each of the 3 gun captains cocking the percussion arm, pulling the cord and a hammer struck the conventional primer which started the same process.

A friend was the turret captian on the New Jersey' B turret. Talked with one of the chief petty officers running their main battery and he said their mean first shot miss distance at maximum range (about 23 miles) was about 100 yards. Calculate that into minutes of angle.

Bart B.
Main Battery Fire Controlman
USN Retired
 
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My grandfather was on the Wisconsin. He was a member of the Charter crew and went to the Pacific. I have some photos and copies of "The Badger", that was the ships paper. It is now on display in Norfolk.

I believe he was a loader, so that video was great to see.

Thanks!
 
Most beautiful capital ship ever built was the Iron Duke.

Not a particularly great picture of her, but I can't find the really good one right now.

HMS+IRON+DUKE.+1b.jpg
 
I drive by the USS Iowa nearly every weekday! Beautiful sight, but I always mourn for her. Even though these battlewagons are obsolete, I'd be willing to pay to see them cruising the oceans again.
 
Here's two main links to the US Navy's large caliber shipboard guns:

Naval Ordnance & Gunnery Vol. 1; complete information on both gun mounts and gun turrets. Sub links have much details on what really goes on with these monsters. Chapters 6 and 7 are great.
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/FC-ORDNANCE.html

Naval Ordnance & Gunnery Vol. 2; all the main stuff about the radars, computers and machinery used to aim and load main battery shipboard systems. Chapters 19 and 20 are most interesting.
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/FIRE-CONTROL-PAGE.html

Petty Officer 2nd Class Slover has put together the best on-line information I've seen on US Navy main battery systems. Reading and knowing virtually all this information back in the late 1950's and early 1960's was important if one wanted to be advanced to Petty Officer 1st Class or Chief Petty Officer.

It all kind of went like this when a shore fire control party got a call for fire from some infantry outfit ashore. The target's position had already been set into the MK 8 Rangekeeper in main battery plot. When everything looked pretty good, it started.........

"Shore action starboard! All guns, main battery. High capacity, full charge, fuse quick! B turret center gun, 1 round load for spotter correction. All turrets, all other guns load and stand by for shore bombardment action!" sang out the main battery plotting room's Chief Petty Officer after the Gunnery Officer made final decisions on what to to then told the Chief to call for action. Meanwhile the MK 8 Rangekeeper ships range, bearing, and target plotting operators cranked knobs and watched dials for own ships position quickly be what's needed to properly aim the guns at the target's calculated postion.

Meanwhile, folks on the bridge and fire control towers were taking range and bearing readings to known shore objects to triangulate an accurate ships position to the target position on the charts. In fact, during shore bombardment, ships speed was set into the range keeper manually at zero. The target point ashore was cranked in to equal ships speed but whose course was 180 degrees out from own ships course. Ballistic calculations were more accurate doing it this way. They calculated the actual bearing and range to the target and the rangekeeper operators made sure their machine had the same numbers. If they didn't, small corrections to target course and speed would be made until they did match. When it did consistantly match, "Plot set!" was made by the battery chief to the gunnery officer.

When B turret's turret captain phoned back to main battery plot: "B turret center gun loaded!" the Chief told the stable vertical (held the gyro to give the true vertical for aiming guns as well as firing keys, or triggers) operator whose hands were on the firing keys: "B turret center gun....Shoot!"

The stable vertical operator would close the salvo warning key twice quickly with his left hand to sound a pre-firing klaxon in the turret as well as in other key stations on board. Two short blasts on the salvo warning klaxon was followed one second later by the stable vertical operator used his right hand for closing the firing key now connected for B turret. It took about 1 second from closing the key before all hell broke loose, the ship shuddred and a God awful "booooooommmmmm" was heard every where.

As soon as the 16-inch gun counter recoiled 3 feet back into battery and elevated back to its load position, the plug would be dropped and gas ejection air blew all the smoke and residue out the muzzle. When the gun captain could see daylight through the 66-foot long hole: "Bore clear. One round expended. No casualties." was the report from the gun captian to the turret captain in the turret's control room which he passed on to main battery plot.

Many seconds later the main battery plotting room range operator who started his stop watch when the round was fired and knew how long the projectile's time of flight was, would radio the spotter ashore watching the impact area through his binoculars "Standby!" which meant in about 5 seconds the round would hit. "Splash!" was the call the spotter was waiting for; he would see the round's explosing on impact, then make his spot corrections based on his position relative to the target. He radioed back to the ship; "Drop 150, left 4 mils, fire for effect!!!" Which meant the shore fire control party had enough confidence in the ship's crew to do well enough that further spots weren't needed. The target needed to be destroyed now!

Back in the ship's plotting room, they would convert the spots from the spotters position to what was need from the ships position using a round calculator called a Mil Spot Converter. The rangekeepers bearing and range operaters would make spot corrections to change gun orders just enough to move the impact point. "Add 200, right 2 mils!" would be given to the range and bearing operators then they cranked them in on the spot correction knobs. As soon as the rangekeeper's gun order dials had quit shaking from the spot adjustments and settled down, the operators would say "Bearing set." "Range set." The battery Chief would tell the gunnery officer "Plot set!"

The gunnery officer was satisfied with everything going on, he would then tell the battery Chief to fire for effect. So the Chief phoned everyone in the battery saying: "Shore action port, main battery, all guns, high capacity, salvo fire, full charge, fuse quick. Load and be ready!! Some 66 men in each of a battleship's turrets would move 9 projectiles and 54 bags of powder into gun breeches. The fire control switchboard operator would set a couple dozen turret control switches to get orders from the rangekeeper and firing circuits from the stable elements. When all turrets reported ready back to main battery plot, everyone got ready for that klaxon to sound again.......

"Shoot! Shoot! Shoot!" was what the stable vertical operator heard then he closed the salvo warning key twice more, then several hundred people on board who heard those salvo warning klaxon's honking quickly plugged their ears. The firing key was closed and a second later, all hell broke loose in the form of nine 1,900 pounders going up those barrels headed for some poor target ahore. "Bababa- bababa- bababooooooooooommmmmmmmmm" all within one second. Dust and rained down from the over head cables. Coffee cups rattled in their racks. Light bulbs loose in their sockets would fall out. Pencils jumped on the desks they were on. The whole ship went to about 4 on the Richter scale. And that 45,000 ton battleship moved sideways in the water about two thousandths of an inch; .002-inch. That's all.

It all happened again about 40 seconds later. Then again. And again. And again...... until those blessed words came back from the shore fire control party's spotter: "Cease fire! Cease Fire. Target destroyed." And a few mintes later, the shore fire control party would get a call from some infantry unit that another target was found, so the beleaguered US Army platoon's second lieutenant radioed the shore fire control party the coordinates of a column of enemy tanks moving towards him but were behind a high hill between them and the ship. But only three guns were needed for those tanks. No more celebrating; back to work. So the plotting room sets up a new target on the rangekeeper after shifting its ballistics section to "reduced charge" to arc the projectiles over that hill and down on the tanks. Turret crews get ready to load only four bags of powder instead of the normal six, then pay attention to the new orders: "Shore bombardment, port. Main battery, C turret. High capacity, reduced charge for reverse slope target, fuse quick! C turret center gun, 1 round load for spotter correction. All other guns stand easy"

As Paul Harvey (bless his departed soul) said so many times: "Now you've heard the rest of the story."

Bart B.
Chief Fire Controlman
USN Retired
 
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Still... the psychological effect of a dreadnought sitting off your coast and lighting up the sky as it lobs a Chevrolet-sized explosive at you is demoralizing.

...well, consider that we bombarded both the European shorelines and, more significantly, multiple Japanese (in WWII) and Vietnamese fortifications for weeks, and had basically no effect. We shot millions of tons of steel at some Jap targets and in the end, they would crawl out and be ready to fight off a ground invasion.

Unfortunately for the battleship enthusiasts, the Napoleonic style of warfare is no longer applicable. Hence the "island hopping" theory in the Pacific theatre, where instead of trying to overtake strongly held larger islands, Allied forces would simply maneuver around them, regardless of their strategic advantages. Fact is, islands don't move.

Even the erudite teachings and tactics of Jomini and Clausewitz need some revision for the modern battlespace, because of 1) the speed at which munitions can be delivered and 2) the wide variety of terminal effects those munitions can produce and 3) that cladded fortifications of our enemies are relatively impervious to dumb shells, even 100s of them.

The plate in this photo is a face plate from a Yamato...26 inches of solid steel, now thats penetration.

Alas, 26 inches of steel might as well be paper mache for a large shaped charge jet with a signifcant HE charge behind it. Hence the development of active and reactive armor solutions, rather than merely hanging more and more armor on the platform.
 
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The days of the Battleship are gone simply because it has been overtaken by airpower and modern delivery systems. Still, if you've ever stood along the coast and looked out 8 miles to see this huge BB steaming up the coast, it'll send shivers down your spine. When the Missiouri came to SF decades ago, we saw it alongside the Big E... and it looked formidible as hell. Both ships look like city blocks on the move.

Today's guided missile frigates and cruisers are cheaper to run, can put more firepower on target and at greater ranges. And in some cases, the choice of munitions runs from anti-personnel up to tactical nukes.

The ability of modern aircraft to aerial refuel for strategic operations goes back to 1949. With that ability, risking 150 men in 15 B-52's makes more sense than risking 1500 aboard a BB.

Though a BB could be "modernized" by removing the rear gun mount to install quad launching rails, adding SLCM cruise missle launchers midships and adding a butt-load of Phalanx 20mm & 30mm defensive turrets, in the modern battlespace, the BB's are just what Admiral Rickover said they were -- large floating targets.

A side effect of the UAV programs now underway may be the elimination of supercarriers. Smaller, cheaper UAVs taking off from smaller carriers can stay aloft longer, range further and be replaced easier (in theory). And you don't lose your top pilots when one is shot down.

Re: Shore bombardment - the Japanese did, in fact, dig tunnels deep into mountains and hills as shelter from bombardment. But it is disingenious to say the shelling had no effect. Survivors from some of the Pacific campaigns tell of the terrible toll it took on the sanity of some of their men. One Japanese Lt. said two days of shelling had psychologically ruined 25% of the men in his unit, some of them would simply tremble or defecate in their pants from a loud noise.
 
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