Like it matters who we elect President. The Republic is dead.

P

Payette Jack

New member
Sorry to be the damper today.

Bush or Gore is not the real issue. Its a facade and this election doesn't mean squat.

Think I'm kidding? Ask people you know about thier views on gubmint. You'll hear about taxes and benefits and regulations, maybe something about the economy.

What you WON'T hear about is Freedom, the Constitution, the BoR, limited self-government, seperation of powers and the rule of law. That's because these ideas are dead to the masses. Oh, there's always a few holdouts who cling to this stuff like a rat to a turd, but its easy enough to label us, demonize and ostracize. ("What do you mean the Department of Eduacation is unConstitutional?!?!? Do you hate kids or something? You want kids to starve in the streets?!")

All we can do is sigh and mourn the death of the Republic. The ideas and foundations laid down in the Declaration, Constitution and BoR are dead, not only in the political realm, but also in the hearts and minds of the average Joe and that's where it really counts anyway.
 
I strongly think you underestimate the average American person,,,all I can say is speak for yourself.

See ya at the voiting booth.

~Jason
 
C'mon, JMack.

You think you could ask 100 people about who they voted for and why and ever hear the words "Constitution" or "seperation of powers?"

"Why yes, I voted for Bush because of the awful record of blatant disregard for the seperation of powers under Clinton/Gore."

You'll never hear it. It's a dead concept. Same for the ideas of State's rights, maintaining national soveriegnty, limited powers of fed.gov and dozens of other issues.

DOA. And with them the foundations of the Republic.
 
Jack,

As much as I wish that you're wrong, in reality I know that you're probably right.

Too bad. :(

Still, we can keep fighting a delaying action, and hope that we all kick off before any really bad stuff comes down.

Later,
Chris

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"TV what do I see, tell me who to believe, what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all??" - Incubus, Idiot Box
 
Sorry, guy. I choose the people I wish to hang around with much better than that. My friends are gun people and if they aren't they know who the founding fathers were. There is always self doubt so just turn it into activism.
 
Jack,

I will agree with most everything you said.
However, where this nation is today is the result of decades of neglect, apathy, and usurpations. Small, niggling cuts inflicted by our own hands and others along with occasional deep wounds placing us in the position of servants rather than masters of our government.

As it took years to reach the point you describe, it will take time to overturn. What we must do is slow the runaway train we are on and eventually bring it to a stop before we can turn things around. Oddly enough, the stench of the last eight years have probably done more to help awaken the core within the country who have simply had enough of what has been incubating for 50 years or more. A sleeping giant if you will.

With that said, it will take diligence, education and perseverence to turn things round. Vote for the most freedom you can restore at any one time. Sometimes that means simply voting to slow the train down because that is all that is available. Don't give up..

Regards, Chris..
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Payette Jack:
All we can do is sigh and mourn the death of the Republic. The ideas and foundations laid down in the Declaration, Constitution and BoR are dead, not only in the political realm, but also in the hearts and minds of the average Joe and that's where it really counts anyway.[/quote]


That's why the liberals always talk about the children. If you can feed them untruths long enough, they will believe them. I call that child abuse... (Revisionist historians really pi** me off - one of the worst kinds of lying.)

What's worse is the lack of the ability for critical thinking in the masses today. Nobody takes the time to challenge obvious untruths. Nobody is willing to take the time to think through an issue; they concentrate long enough to get a warm and fuzzy and then leap into an abyss.

Having said all that, the Republic isn't dead until we let it die! People can be swayed - truth has a way of hitting home when it is spoken in righteous indignation. And I do believe that people will still listen to the truth (at least for now...)

Optimism or denial?

Ken

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God so values free will that He gave us all the freedom to turn our back on even Him. If liberty is that important to God, it should be that important to us all...
 
I disagree, it does matter who the president is. While W might not be perfect, he's a whole lot more likely to 1) remove a bunch of Clinton's executive orders (things like banning the import of parts for semi-auto rifles), 2) tell HUD to tear up the "agreement" with S&W, etc.

W isn't nearly as libertarian as most of us would like. But he's a whole lot better than Gore.

M1911
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Payette Jack:
C'mon, JMack.

You think you could ask 100 people about who they voted for and why and ever hear the words "Constitution" or "seperation of powers?"

[/quote]

Actually, I was talking with people at work on Sunday about voting, and those keywords you just mentioned are the exact reasons they gave for voting for Bush.



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"There are roads that must not be followed, and battles that must not be fought.." --Sun Tzu
 
It's easy to forget that the Founders weren't perfect by a long shot either, but they got the job done so well that 200 years later, people like us admire them enough to operate on the assumption of their greatness most of the time.
It's the same with our guys. They're not perfect, but if we can get the system working the way it should again, the Republic can make a comeback. I really do believe this. I also believe the odds are against us, but that's why you play the game--odds are tricky.
No President will save the Republic anyway. It will take an electorate that cares and is knowledgeable enough to make the right decisions, and no President can create that. It's our job and if it doesn't happen it will be because we failed, not because the President wasn't a good libertarian.
 
Sometimes I think the republic is dead then I hear of something that makes me think otherwise. I grew as a Libertarian. I was reading Thomas Sowell and Hudson Institute in high school. My hero was and still is Walter Williams. I have always sifted American politics through the grid of the Libertian philosophy.

Never in my life have I heard so much discussion about the Constitution and BofR as I have this election. Not because I address this forum but because I hear it on talk radio and read it in both popular literature and libertarian and conservative tomes. I hear individuals actually discuss "checks and balances" of the federal government. I hear people want to know why old geezers get free drugs just because they get old enough.

Social movements in the US generally follow a 7 year cycle. 2 years to define the problem, 2-4 years to bat around solutions, and 1-2 years to implement solution. There is hope.

------------------
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-George Washington.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christopher II:
Still, we can keep fighting a delaying action, and hope that we all kick off before any really bad stuff comes down. [/quote]

C2,
I almost let this pass. But the problem is, that just letting things continue down this road, hoping WE die off from natural causes before the government takes control of our children, and their children, etc. Now, no one hates the "Save the Children" mantra any more than I do. However, it seems to me if we continue to allow the government to control us, our children might as well don their jail clothes now. I'm not flaming you, I just disagree that we should sit aside and DO NOTHING.

As far as what to do? Well, this thought has been niggling at my concious for a while now. Here goes. Will some one, ANYONE, please name GOOD CHANGES that have occured at the ballot box. Don't take this question the wrong way. Let me set this up. The general consensus here is that the country is going to hell in a hand basket. There are those who firmly believe we can change the direction of this countries future simply by voting one way or another. So, can we just vote ourselves a better government (especially less government)? I doubt it. Can anyone name a time in history when a country in trouble, which is where I say the US is at, voted it's way back to prosperity? Please, JUST ONE EXAMPLE and I'll be happy.
Throughout history, the main changes that occur IN ANY COUNTRY occurs with the use of the cartridge box, not the ballot box. Please someone tell me wrong I am and give me several examples. One example is good. Three example is better. Five examples great.
 
Wallew -

Would the ending of Prohibition count?

Later,
Chris

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"TV what do I see, tell me who to believe, what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all??" - Incubus, Idiot Box
 
The election of Reagan was a good thing. The creation of CCW licenses in most states was a good thing that happened largely at the ballot box.

Besides, you are looking at this thing from the wrong end of the telescope. You may be mostly right that the National picture won't change a lot with one election. That's because the system is so entrenched.

But on the LOCAL level, you can make a difference big-time. True story. My wife was really concerned about our local school board. It was pretty evenly split between real educators and NEA PC-types who wanted to do unnatural things. One seat up for grabs, and the candidates were clearly different. One pro-education, one PC garbage. My wife made me call 10 people. 8 had not voted yet (1 hour to go). She also called 10 people. We all voted in the last hour and OUR CANDIDATE WON BY 4 VOTES!

And our school board is now back to the way it ought to be.

Local elections can be swayed by small numbers. If you get your local rperesentatives thinking right, then you move upstream. Bottom-up change. That can eventually change things at the top.

This system will still work, if we work it. Remember, its designed for slow-deliberate change.
 
Payette Jack,

I am sure I am not the only one that is getting a different view on this issue but I personally talk to alot of people that I chose to suround myself with that are voting not just on gun rights but freedom and the constitution of the United States.

This is something that I think is important to more people than you may think. Again, I am not just being optimistic, I simply have faith in this issue by what I have been observing on a day to day basis.

And please, dont kid yourself by saying that who you vote for doesnt matter. It matters more in this election than any others thus far.

~Jason

My fingers are crossed are yours?
 
Most people say that one election won't change the NATIONAL picture. But differences can be made at the LOCAL level. I used to believe that. I live in Denver, Colorado. And about two years ago, we elected a republican for governor for the first time in many,many years. Then Columbine. Now, this republican governor sounds like a democrat on almost EVERY ISSUE. I am completely depressed about our local politics. We have Amendment 22 to "CLOSE THE GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE". The anti-gun rhetoric is deep and wide. And of course complete with all the lies they can muster (if you vote no, you want to kill cops). I guess if you've had good experience with LOCAL politics you can be positive. Swap with me, I'm depressed as I can be. I still voted two weeks ago, one of the few things Colorado got right if you ask me. Run George, Run.

C2,
If we had learned the lesson on Prohibition, I might say it counts. As we currently have the same oppresive prohibition, the only difference is the 'bad item' is currently drugs. Now, mark my words. The cultural climate seems to be shifting towards legalizing all drugs. What will all those Federal LEO's do if that happens? WAR ON GUNS! will occur and then they will start trying to prohibit the ownership and usage of firearms.

While I agree it seems like an ideal example, I feel that we really never QUIT prohibiting 'bad items', we just shifted the blame, so to speak. My .02.
 
I for one will celebrate extensively if Bush wins and some of the senators/congressmen I voted for, and hope for with other states.

However, You are probably on to something. The level of apathy in this country scales to the size of Mt. Everest. Maybe even greater.

Most people it seems anyway are more interested in Allie McBeals new dress size, What John Elway gave out for Halloween candy and how many bags of chips they can graze on while watching the latest cable network programming. I.e., Allie McBeal and how the favorite football team is doing.
 
Agreeing with above post to the subject, the Republic as it should be is pretty sick, maybe not dead. Ally McBeal, football, the latest golf club technology are up there, but what people are really interested in is "how fat is MY wallet?" and "what can I get out of the government?" Even Al Gore admits this when he makes the centerpiece of his campaign "continued prosperity" and "save Social Security and provide prescription drug benefits." He never mentions restoring honor to the Executive Branch. Unless something drastic happens, like a full-blown truly Constitution-based Supreme Court, the incremental demise of our Republic will continue. At some point, by the time the sheeple realize they love but no longer have freedom, it will be too late for ballots to change things. I hope I am wrong.

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Shamans emerge whenever certain needs remain unanswered...Mark Levy
 
So what?

Cry in your beer if you wish ... sometimes I do as well.

But, generally, I'm doing what I can, with money, volunteer work and creative energy ... to do my best to help fellow Americans remember how we became the greatest nation on the face of the earth.

My alternative is to look my kids in the eye someday and tell them I really didn't give a rat's a$$.

I'll put it this way ... I'd rather have Bush, and hope he'll appoint more fine people like Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court.

And, take a look at the 5 Minute Handbook in the TFL library ... perhaps you'll be rejuvenated. (1) The freedom movement will always be a minority movement, and (2) the fight for freedom never ends.

Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited November 07, 2000).]
 
Come on, PJ, you live in Idaho. Listen to the regular folks (who don't live in Boise or Moscow :)). There are plenty of freedom lovers here. They just don't feel it necessary to call the radio and blather on and on about it ;). Where else would you get to vote for a sheriff candidate who advocates arresting the IRS?
 
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