dixierifleman
Moderator
have you ever cleared a house using 7 Bravos? it sucks. i had a Surefire on my A4 before i got issued 14 Charlies and a PEQ15
Lights on Guns?
- Thread starter rbrgs
- Start date
+1. True darkness, like you'd find in a cave, is rare. There is usually ambient light. Even deep in the woods.
Turning on the lights is a tough call. If you live alone or with just your spouse, that's one thing, but as someone else pointed out, you may have a sleep-walking teenager. Also, 98% of us will be somewhat excited/nervous. It all goes back to knowing yourself. I'm sticking with the "no light" tactic, it just works best for me.
The Tourist
Moderator
I've never needed it, but I think I would blink mine on and off and keep moving.
If you can see the attacker, then he can see you.
If you can see the attacker, then he can see you.
To each his/her own on weapons lights. Your individual/team training using them properly and as situation dictates should keep you from doing the right/wrong thing. Mil/Leo both prior and active service will carry the knowledge from their training in both like and dislikes. Home defense will take consideration on a individual level and things like kids, dogs,single or split level home, and a look into the mirror on your abilities. If, and, or buts..... are just that if you have never trained or gone full speed.
Outside if you left it on for extended periods of time, than maybe. I know it has been tested in the shoot house during training time and time again with simunitions. When entering a darken room or structor, the light is over powering and people who would shoot back are normally blinded or dazzled by it.
If you are strobing it while you move, you also tend to give them vertigo and loose perspective on angles to shoot back.
Sounds just like guys that go to karate and then talk about how they can handle any street tough they run into beacuse they KNOW how it would all go down in their own mind. Real life can be different.
A good friend of mine, a blackbelt (and also a cop BTW), wanted to show me how I could not hold him in a head lock. Well, I showed him that I COULD hold him in a headlock. Now I am a pretty strong guy but it was admittedly an effort to keep hold of him. All he could say afterwards was that I "cheated" because I worked around back behind and to the side of him in such a way that none of his techniques were successful (he tried at least 3 different methods if memory serves). He said how that in a "real street" situation he would be held in such a way that his techniques would always work for him. I just pointed out to him that fighters don't give a damn about what he expects them to do, and that in a real situation I would have allowed myself to hold on tighter and ACTUALLY CHOKE HIM, but I had to avoid that with him. Anyway, you remind me of my friend! Take that anyway you you wish, but remember he is my friend so it isn't meant to be an insult.
ssilicon,
There is a big difference between a sport meant for competitions, and training for combat under the watchful eyes of instructors that have forgotten more about gun fighting then most of us will ever learn. One constant thing across most training schools is that white light used properly is a tactical advantage.
There is a big difference between a sport meant for competitions, and training for combat under the watchful eyes of instructors that have forgotten more about gun fighting then most of us will ever learn. One constant thing across most training schools is that white light used properly is a tactical advantage.
ssilicon
I am active duty US Marine, a combat shooting instructor and have involved on two way ranges several times against people trying to kill me and my fellow Marines. I don't think anything, I was relaying what I have seen dozens of times before in shoot houses when using lights against other with simunitions. The few times I have done it for real, I couldn't ask the people the receiving end of the lights what they thought, either because of not speaking their language and the only reason I didn't shoot them off the bat, was they were covering their eyes with their hands and I saw no reason to or they were unable to talk afterwards.
I am active duty US Marine, a combat shooting instructor and have involved on two way ranges several times against people trying to kill me and my fellow Marines. I don't think anything, I was relaying what I have seen dozens of times before in shoot houses when using lights against other with simunitions. The few times I have done it for real, I couldn't ask the people the receiving end of the lights what they thought, either because of not speaking their language and the only reason I didn't shoot them off the bat, was they were covering their eyes with their hands and I saw no reason to or they were unable to talk afterwards.
I agree. In instances where you are trying to obtain complete stealth a flashlight would be just hazardous to your health. Now if I am on the team coming through your door at 2am in the morning with my buddies while you are asleep then yes a 100+ lumens in your face will get the exact reaction I want. A homeowner might want to wait before turning that flashlight on till he knows its the right time to get the upperhand. Its only a tool and yes you would be stupid to incorprate it in the wrong scenario at the wrong time.
dixierifleman
Moderator
ok michigun
thats a pretty damn stupid statement. im sure youd just as soon not know who you shot in the dark.
for combat, its a great thing. they already know we are on the way once the door goes down. my surefire was a very useful tool in combat. you just need to know how to use it properly in a HD scenario. i doubt many people have NVGs and a PEQ on their home defence weapon, but a surefire, if used properly and with the right timing, would be useful. chances are your not gonna sneak up on the perp. if its dark, youll fumble over things, so there goes the "stealth" and not lettin the BG hear you. also, you dont have the light on the whole time, you listen for where he is, make your way there, and spotlight him. its far a stupid act in the right hands.
thats a pretty damn stupid statement. im sure youd just as soon not know who you shot in the dark.
for combat, its a great thing. they already know we are on the way once the door goes down. my surefire was a very useful tool in combat. you just need to know how to use it properly in a HD scenario. i doubt many people have NVGs and a PEQ on their home defence weapon, but a surefire, if used properly and with the right timing, would be useful. chances are your not gonna sneak up on the perp. if its dark, youll fumble over things, so there goes the "stealth" and not lettin the BG hear you. also, you dont have the light on the whole time, you listen for where he is, make your way there, and spotlight him. its far a stupid act in the right hands.
Except for the fact that unless you are out in the middle of no where in a new moon, both people can see the shadows, only the bad guys knows for sure that you aren't on his side. While you are trying to figure out if that's an intruder, or just your dumb teenager trying to get a cup of water.
Hope you make the right choice.
Well then, as a Marine you certainly should be familiar with the vlaue of cover and concealment. Carying a beacon of light is just about as far away from, and in fact has an entirely OPPOSITE effect of concealment. I don't see the point of continuing to argue it. I'm glad that you and your brother devil dogs came out on top. I just am convinced, that in defense of my home, holding a flashlight while unknown assailant(s) are in my home makes me more of a target then them. And if the bad guys came into my home with flashlights, I think my 12 gauge would make quick work of whoever holds it. But then my home is familiar to me so I know where I'm going etc. I haven't had to test that yet but my money is on not being the beacon in lighthouse.
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It is only a beacon if people are several hundred feet away from you, up close it is too blinding for them to see.
Human reaction to when they are are sitting in the dark and something that bright in shined in their vicinity is to squint and cover their eyes. I have seen guys with rifles and pistols time and time again, not be able to effectively get off a shot when a light was turned on in their vicinity. Go ahead and believe you do what every, however you aren't going to.
Human reaction to when they are are sitting in the dark and something that bright in shined in their vicinity is to squint and cover their eyes. I have seen guys with rifles and pistols time and time again, not be able to effectively get off a shot when a light was turned on in their vicinity. Go ahead and believe you do what every, however you aren't going to.
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Yes, I will. And a light is a beacon at 20 feet as much or more than it is at 120 feet. With a light like that, they see you coming long before you see them in many instances. Hell, why do you think SpecOps use night vision instead of flashlights? Is it because they want to waste more money and have stuff hanging in front of their face? Or is it because it let's them SEE WITHOUT BEING SEEN? We OWN the night my friend.
Though I was never an infantryman I am ex-military. I bring this up for this point... As I think back to those many years ago I realize how many notions and beliefs I had that I have long since come to a better understanding of. What I am trying to say, is there are often adjendas beyond what you may be aware, and methods are sometimes optimised for those. Stay alive and best of luck.
You don't know what you are talking about SF have lights on their rifles. I have worked with enough ODA and task force guys to know that for sure. Where do you think the first surefire lights entered the inventory? You don't clear buildings on googles, they give you poor depth perception and throw off your angles of fire.
You use goggles for some situations may be like clearing on objective during an assault or on a static OP/LP, but not when you go into buildings or after you enter the kill zone of an ambush, you go on white light. When you are on goggles, you need to have a laser pointer to exploit there usage and most people don't go nights vision sights on weapons except for belt feeds.
dixierifleman
Moderator
well i am in the Infantry, and i know all the Recon and MARSOC guys have M4s with the front grips with the lights built into them. clearing houses with NVGs on SUCKS. the 7Bravos were just plain heavy and awkward. the 14Charlies arnt as bad, you only use one eye with them, but they are still awkward, and the focus on them sucks. for nighttime patrols outside, they work OK. but for CQC, id take my surefire over NVGs.