The talk about re-introduction of grizzlies seems like a good excuse to buy my first revolver. Keeping in mind that the only way I can keep up to my gung-ho kids is to buy lighter equipment than they can afford and shaving ounces from my pack, what is the best choice? Besides hiking, it would also be a camp carry gun and backup for hunting.
Light weight but heavy duty
- Thread starter drothen
- Start date
bullfrog99
New member
357 mag titanium tracker 7 shot - 25 oz load with something solid and heavy (180 grain soft points)
glock 17 9mm
23 oz 17 rounds of overpenitraiting hardball should work nicely on the skull of a mean brown or grizzley
TT-33 tokarev in 7.62x25 un cocked un locked(crappy safty if their is one) i have heard reports of a 7.62x25 penetraiting 2 meters of flesh on a northern griz, something confidence building about a round that can go from stem to stern on a 1000 lb critter. aim though, wound channel will be non existent, much like sticking a 6 foot ice pick into it.
Personally i don't like big things that want to eat me, so i would go with a ruger redhawk 5.5 inch 45 colt stainless with bullalo bore 335 grain lbt's in it. weight 49 oz, but it seems worth it when your life may be on the line.
or just carry an eight ounce can of pepper spray.
glock 17 9mm
23 oz 17 rounds of overpenitraiting hardball should work nicely on the skull of a mean brown or grizzley
TT-33 tokarev in 7.62x25 un cocked un locked(crappy safty if their is one) i have heard reports of a 7.62x25 penetraiting 2 meters of flesh on a northern griz, something confidence building about a round that can go from stem to stern on a 1000 lb critter. aim though, wound channel will be non existent, much like sticking a 6 foot ice pick into it.
Personally i don't like big things that want to eat me, so i would go with a ruger redhawk 5.5 inch 45 colt stainless with bullalo bore 335 grain lbt's in it. weight 49 oz, but it seems worth it when your life may be on the line.
or just carry an eight ounce can of pepper spray.
dreadnaught
New member
I'd start with the can of pepper spray. Then get myself a 44Mag Mountain Gun and load it with something evil. I dont wanna disrespect Bullfrog but for me, the 9mm and Tokarev are way too light. Hot 357 Magnum would be as light as I'd go. But since i have multiple 44s and only one 357, it shouldnt be a problem. Not too many bears around here anyway.
I appreciate the pepper spray suggestion, but remember that this is an excuse to buy a gun. Don't go messing up my rationalization. Are there bears that are not effected by pepper spray, just as there are people not effected?
Is a .357 mag actually effective against a bear? I know that placement is the key, but you still have to penetrate and you may not get to pick the angle.
Is a .357 mag actually effective against a bear? I know that placement is the key, but you still have to penetrate and you may not get to pick the angle.
drothen; No matter what you choose it will be a compromise of some kind. How far are your hikes? If there're more than 3 or 4 miles from camp I wouldn't go any heavier than 30 ozs or so. Nowadays, I mostly hang around camp not wandering more than a mile or so. I carry a S&W mod 657 41 magnum with Federals 250gr Hardcast hunting loads. We both live in bear country and for years I carry a 357 magnum. Was it to light for a bear encounter? I don't know. Federal also has a 180gr Hardcast hunting load in 357 magnum. I think this load would be fairly effective if the bear wasn't more than 250lbs or so. The 10mm is a consideration also. Probably THE best balance between power and weight is the S&W 44 mag Mountain Gun. Next, I would say the Taurus mod 415 in 41 magnum (I believe it's 30ozs). Good Luck, J. Parker
handguns for bear???
Why does this "gun for bear" crap keep coming up? With all due respect for those living in bear country (I don't; just coyotes, wild dogs and the occasional feral pig), why do you insist on recommending ANY handgun for stopping a griz intent on eating you? If it was me in bear country intent on saving my a** from getting munched on by a big hairy toothy with claws, I'd tote a 458 Win Mag with a lightweight stock and muzzle break, and screw the weight. Inconvienient, yes, but so is bothering to CCW if legal in your state of residence. Just like your CCW, it's not supposed to be comfortable, it's supposed to be comforting. If you just want a lightweight gun to tote around, just go buy whatever you want. Honestly folks, choosing between a 357, a 44 and a 45 LC for 1000+ lb griz is like choosing between a 22, 25, and 32 for self defense against someone who's big, fast, has a two sharp knives they know how to use and isn't afraid of being shot. Better than nothing, sure. Ranks slightly above prayer, begging, and Tai Chi. Remember, you want the bear to die BEFORE it starts ripping off your body parts. Has anyone seen a study that documents the number of self defense shootings against bears with handguns? If you can show me that a handgun of any type offers a one-shot stop percentage against bears you're comfortable with trusting your family's lives to, let me know. I'll be happy to stand corrected.
Why does this "gun for bear" crap keep coming up? With all due respect for those living in bear country (I don't; just coyotes, wild dogs and the occasional feral pig), why do you insist on recommending ANY handgun for stopping a griz intent on eating you? If it was me in bear country intent on saving my a** from getting munched on by a big hairy toothy with claws, I'd tote a 458 Win Mag with a lightweight stock and muzzle break, and screw the weight. Inconvienient, yes, but so is bothering to CCW if legal in your state of residence. Just like your CCW, it's not supposed to be comfortable, it's supposed to be comforting. If you just want a lightweight gun to tote around, just go buy whatever you want. Honestly folks, choosing between a 357, a 44 and a 45 LC for 1000+ lb griz is like choosing between a 22, 25, and 32 for self defense against someone who's big, fast, has a two sharp knives they know how to use and isn't afraid of being shot. Better than nothing, sure. Ranks slightly above prayer, begging, and Tai Chi. Remember, you want the bear to die BEFORE it starts ripping off your body parts. Has anyone seen a study that documents the number of self defense shootings against bears with handguns? If you can show me that a handgun of any type offers a one-shot stop percentage against bears you're comfortable with trusting your family's lives to, let me know. I'll be happy to stand corrected.
Good info, thanks. Like anything else in life, it is a balancing act. Our hikes are for up to a week, maybe 5 to 10 miles per day, carrying all our stuff. I skip a lot of comfort to keep my pack down to 40-45 pounds. I think the best bear defense is to stay alert and not panic. I worry more about a cougar jumping me. However if worst comes to worst (unlikely but possible), I would like to have something more than my knife and a stick. I have been carrying my 9mm. but for the same weight, or just a little more, I think I can have a lot more effectiveness. I know there are some nice titanium frame revolvers out there and I will put up with the recoil. 30ozs is in the ball park. What are the relative merits of the .41mag, .44mag and 45 colt calibers?
JWR; Why does this "gun for bear" crap keep coming up? Because some of us live and or recreate in bear country. Check drothen's post. He's a backpacker/hiker type. He'd look pretty foolish luggin' a 458 Win. along a hiking trail. But don't get me wrong, I'd step aside and let him pass
. drothen; You're on the right track. You might want to check Taurus's website. They've got a Stainless Steel 41 magnum at about 30ozs. and I believe a Tianium 41 magnum that's pretty darn light (I don't know the weight). I think in Idaho and Washington State we're more likely to come upon a black bear, a cougar, or a low life two legger than a grizzly. I wouldn't have a problem with a 357 maggie with Federal's 180 Hardcast load but I believe a 41 mag, 44 mag, or 45LC is a better choice. Best Regards, J. Parker
. drothen; You're on the right track. You might want to check Taurus's website. They've got a Stainless Steel 41 magnum at about 30ozs. and I believe a Tianium 41 magnum that's pretty darn light (I don't know the weight). I think in Idaho and Washington State we're more likely to come upon a black bear, a cougar, or a low life two legger than a grizzly. I wouldn't have a problem with a 357 maggie with Federal's 180 Hardcast load but I believe a 41 mag, 44 mag, or 45LC is a better choice. Best Regards, J. ParkerRon Ankeny
New member
I used to carry a Smith and Wesson Trail Boss in our grizzly bear management areas, but I sold it and now I just carry spray. I feel kind of naked so I am going to pick up an older 629 Mountain Gun this winter. If you want a double action revolver and don't mind doing business with Smith, then the Trail Boss or Mountain Gun are both good choices. If you want a post sell-out revolver, then take a look at the Backpacker 629.
Drothen, I imagine you and I hike, camp, hunt in some of the same areas. I always carry either my S&Klinton Mdl. 57 in .41 mag., loaded with my handloads with a 250 gr. Beartooth bullet, or my Ruger Blackhawk .45 L.C., 4 5/8" bbl., with 300 gr. hard cast Beartooth bullets. You can go to that site http://www.beartoothbullets.com and ask Marshall Stanton, the owner, questions re this subject. Click on "Shooter's Forum." He lives in northern Idaho and knows his stuff... plus, those are fantastic bullets he makes.
If you don't reload, then Buffalo Bore bullets, up near Salmon, has some great, heavy loads for your handgun.
I've killed a 400 lb. black bear with the .41 Mag. I know it'll work, if you do your job. I have a friend who archery hunts north of Fairlfield, Idaho, and he had to use his .45 L.C. one night late, when a black bear decided to take over his tent.
FWIW. J.B.
If you don't reload, then Buffalo Bore bullets, up near Salmon, has some great, heavy loads for your handgun.
I've killed a 400 lb. black bear with the .41 Mag. I know it'll work, if you do your job. I have a friend who archery hunts north of Fairlfield, Idaho, and he had to use his .45 L.C. one night late, when a black bear decided to take over his tent.
FWIW. J.B.
Drothen: I also spend time in grizzly country and I always pack a weapon. My preferences are, in order of effectiveness:
375 H&H with 300 grain Nosler Partitions
Benelli M1 with 12 gauge slugs
44 Magnum with 250 grain partitions or solid cast loads
45 ACP with 230 grain FMJ
40 S&W with 180 grain FMJ
44 SPL with 230 gain cast loads
Glock 26 with 115 grain FMJ
I'm not recommending these for use by anyone else. I know those at the bottom of the list are marginal, but they beat getting gnawed on. I have done pentration tests (though not on actual bear skulls) with these and feel they could work for me.
I would point out that stopping an attacking grizzly calls for Central Nervous System disruption, as in brain or spinal cord damage. The possibility of a bullet glancing off a bear skull at an angle is possible, so angle of entry becomes important.
A lot of people sing the praises of pepper spray, and I have no problem with their choice. To each his own. I hope they can accept my choice, since I'm just not going to bet my life on aerosol products. Here's hoping we never have to use any of these tactics!
Good Shooting, CoyDog
375 H&H with 300 grain Nosler Partitions
Benelli M1 with 12 gauge slugs
44 Magnum with 250 grain partitions or solid cast loads
45 ACP with 230 grain FMJ
40 S&W with 180 grain FMJ
44 SPL with 230 gain cast loads
Glock 26 with 115 grain FMJ
I'm not recommending these for use by anyone else. I know those at the bottom of the list are marginal, but they beat getting gnawed on. I have done pentration tests (though not on actual bear skulls) with these and feel they could work for me.
I would point out that stopping an attacking grizzly calls for Central Nervous System disruption, as in brain or spinal cord damage. The possibility of a bullet glancing off a bear skull at an angle is possible, so angle of entry becomes important.
A lot of people sing the praises of pepper spray, and I have no problem with their choice. To each his own. I hope they can accept my choice, since I'm just not going to bet my life on aerosol products. Here's hoping we never have to use any of these tactics!
Good Shooting, CoyDog
frontlander
New member
The first defense against a bear is to be alert. Keep your camp away from streams and thick brush. Take the standard precautions with your food and your cooking gear. Stay away from all bears!!! Especially sows with cubs. Have everyone in your party know how to use and carry pepper spray. Hike with the can of spray in your hand. Take a heavy rifle or a slug loaded shotgun along with a handgun of .41 caliber or greater heavily loaded with a hard cast bullet with a wide flat meplat. The grizzly bear vs. handgun battle comes up frequently on the internet. Most of the advice is well intentioned but strays from the bounds of reality. In the ideal situation (how often does a situation remain ideal?) you would have advanced warning of the bear's presence. The bear would be far away from your position. You would be able to retreat to safety, or if terrain did not allow retreat you could assume a rested shooting position and take a nice careful shot into that central nervous system area. In this situation the smaller calibers (9mm, .357, .40) would most likely do the job. Now back to reality. You are strolling down the trail, mind lost in the beauty of the great outdoors. You come around a bend and stumble across a sow with two cubs on the trail. She is 30 feet away from you. She charges and is on you in a second (yes, a second. A grizzly can outrun a horse) Have you practiced doing a cold, surprised draw and planting 17 9mm hardballs onto a bobbing, weaving softball sized target in under a second? Or would you rather deliver one powerful round of a large enough diameter and heavy enough weight to penetrate and break major bone structures? I'm not saying don't aim for the brain. If you hit it, great. Its just that a close miss with a heavy .44 or .45 or preferrably a .475 or .50 will most likely break something of importance to the bear. My opinion is one of many, but formed from years of living in bear country (the Rocky Mountain Front of Montana). Check out http://www.members.nbci.com/keithrogan/artillery.html for some interesting reading about bear attacks from a survivor.
riddleofsteel
New member
there are two points of argument here. one is the people that have lived in heavy bear country for years and never had a problem. kinda like the folks that jog at night in Central Park New York city and say they are never bothered. the other point is the stories of hunters with all kinds of magnum artillery that have been chewed or had close calls with grizzer bears and kodiaks. i guess the true answer is somewhere between going unarmed and carring a cannon.
however when this stuff comes up it brings to mind the story i read about an old guy that used to hunt problem bears for the government back when it was still politically correct to shoot them rather than "relocate" them. he and his brother hunted black and grizzer bears as well as the occasional mountain lion for years with hounds. they would travel the back roads near where problem animals were killing stock or bothering campers or hunters and when the dogs took the scent they would park and follow the hounds on foot. this process often took them miles over some of the most rugged terrain in the western US. the weapon of choice for both men was a HOT loaded .45 Colt. when the article was written they both were using .45 Colt Blackhawks
with 7.5" barrels. i don't know what they were using before the Blackhawk came out but you can bet it was probably a Colt single action.
point her is a hot loaded .45 colt or .454 is more than a match for anything that walks, slithers or flys in North America and probably most of the rest of the world provided you use the right bullet. i know my stag handled Ruger Blackhawk loaded with 300 grain hardcast SWC's loaded to max is my constant companion when i am in the woods. it is a powerful good feeling to have when one of natures true monsters wants to make me his chew toy.
however when this stuff comes up it brings to mind the story i read about an old guy that used to hunt problem bears for the government back when it was still politically correct to shoot them rather than "relocate" them. he and his brother hunted black and grizzer bears as well as the occasional mountain lion for years with hounds. they would travel the back roads near where problem animals were killing stock or bothering campers or hunters and when the dogs took the scent they would park and follow the hounds on foot. this process often took them miles over some of the most rugged terrain in the western US. the weapon of choice for both men was a HOT loaded .45 Colt. when the article was written they both were using .45 Colt Blackhawks
with 7.5" barrels. i don't know what they were using before the Blackhawk came out but you can bet it was probably a Colt single action.
point her is a hot loaded .45 colt or .454 is more than a match for anything that walks, slithers or flys in North America and probably most of the rest of the world provided you use the right bullet. i know my stag handled Ruger Blackhawk loaded with 300 grain hardcast SWC's loaded to max is my constant companion when i am in the woods. it is a powerful good feeling to have when one of natures true monsters wants to make me his chew toy.
frontlander
New member
The .45 Colt Ruger (SA/DA) 5.5" loaded heavy is the production handgun I would prefer for bear protection. Any of the fine 300+ grain LBT-WFN style hard cast lead bullets pushed by maximum charges of H110/W296 (for specific charge weights check out the Hodgdon Manual #26 in the silhoutte section) will get you around 1300 fps. For a $300-400 production handgun, this is amazing power. LBT-style bullets can be purchased on the net from Cast Performance and others. I can recommend a cheap bullet mould for those who like to do it theirselves. Lee .45 300 gr. flat nose gas check. It has a very large meplat. I have the .44 version and it is very accurate. I currently carry a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag 7.5". It is a fine revolver but is large. I used to carry a S&W .44 mag mountain gun till it was destroyed in a tragic negligent reloading event. It was also a fine gun but the 300 gr. loads seemed a little too much for both the gun and the shooter. Perhaps different stocks would have helped handle the recoil better. If financial circumstances permitted I would purchase a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk in .45 Colt, send it to Hamilton Bowen and have a 5 shot cylinder fitted and the barrel shortened to 5.5". Ruger would please many if they would produce a 5.5" Bisley .45 Colt in stainless steel. A five shot .45 or even a .454 would be the icing on the cake.
[Edited by frontlander on 12-17-2000 at 07:19 PM]
[Edited by frontlander on 12-17-2000 at 07:19 PM]
Wow, it was great to get back from a weekend away and see all this info. I really appreciate it! I do like to reload, to I will track down all the bullet info listed and study up. Some people recommend keeping lead bullets below 1000fps to prevent heavy leading in the barrel. Any comment?
I took J. Parker's advice and went to the Taurus web site and looked at the total titanium line. It would certainly save some weight. I saw only one model with a longer barrel (4"), and that's in a .41 magnum. All the .44mags in titanium were stubbies.
Is there a rule-of-thumb for barrel length vs. velocity gain for revolvers? Anyone had any experience with the all-titanium guns?
It looks from the posts that Ruger is a favorite. I lean toward DA. I feel OK about buying pre-sellout S&W used. My range has some rentals, so I plan to try some of these out.
I took J. Parker's advice and went to the Taurus web site and looked at the total titanium line. It would certainly save some weight. I saw only one model with a longer barrel (4"), and that's in a .41 magnum. All the .44mags in titanium were stubbies.
Is there a rule-of-thumb for barrel length vs. velocity gain for revolvers? Anyone had any experience with the all-titanium guns?
It looks from the posts that Ruger is a favorite. I lean toward DA. I feel OK about buying pre-sellout S&W used. My range has some rentals, so I plan to try some of these out.
Titanium/alloy revolvers are a very popular item right now. You'll pay the price in harsh recoil, especially in 357 magnum and 41 magnum snubbies. But ya know, in a tense situation you won't even feel the recoil anyway but you still have to shoot the weapon accurately. If I were a long distance hiker/backpacker where weight was a big concern I think I would go with one of the Titanium/alloy offerings in 357 magnum or Taurus's 4" Tracker in 41 magnum. If you think you can handle (weight wise) a heavier gun then go with that. Your hand will thank you for it. Recovery time on follow up shots will be quicker also. Best Regards, J. Parker