Light triggers, CCW, and Striker Fired Guns

A

adamBomb

New member
I started talking about this in another post but didn't want to hijack. I had the chance to fire the 365 and hellcat this past weekend. I thought the 365 had a lighter trigger making it much easier to shoot but man it felt like I was firing a SA gun. Hellcat was heavier making me lean more heavily towards it as my next purchase but even that was on the lighter side.

Are they making these for people who are not great shooters to make them better at shooting? I am used to DA/SA and DAO so I shoot great with a long trigger pull and on a ccw I expect that as an added safety precaution. Is carrying this much different than carrying a 1911 cocked but not locked? I felt the same way when the LCPII came out.

I realize its all preference and and a good holster protects the trigger but holy geez. Carry what you want and are comfortable with but man I feel like they are catering to the person that can't shoot and doesn't practice. I would love a hammer fired version of these pistols but will deal with a striker with a safety. I get a light trigger is great on a range gun but scares me for ccw which these were designed for.
 
The quest for the ever lighter feeling 4.5-5.5 lb striker trigger is driven by the market, that's what folks want. Even with the light feel most or all still have significantly more travel over a SAO.

Personally fine with them but get the feeling, I thought that the PPQ, in particular, felt right on that edge of "too light without a safety" for my tastes.

But no, it's not quite like a 1911 uncocked, the amount of travel is quite a bit longer, giving that little margin of safety.
 
adamBomb said:
I started talking about this in another post but didn't want to hijack. I had the chance to fire the 365 and hellcat this past weekend. I thought the 365 had a lighter trigger making it much easier to shoot but man it felt like I was firing a SA gun. Hellcat was heavier making me lean more heavily towards it as my next purchase but even that was on the lighter side.

Are they making these for people who are not great shooters to make them better at shooting? I am used to DA/SA and DAO so I shoot great with a long trigger pull and on a ccw I expect that as an added safety precaution. Is carrying this much different than carrying a 1911 cocked but not locked? I felt the same way when the LCPII came out.

I realize its all preference and and a good holster protects the trigger but holy geez. Carry what you want and are comfortable with but man I feel like they are catering to the person that can't shoot and doesn't practice. I would love a hammer fired version of these pistols but will deal with a striker with a safety. I get a light trigger is great on a range gun but scares me for ccw which these were designed for.
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Heavier triggers can be learned, and light triggers aren't necessarily better triggers.

One of my own concerns is safe handling, and avoiding "brain fart" type negligent discharges. Anything bit of tech that helps avoid that is something I want to look at.

Folks in Innernet Gun social media get on like they're totally in control, fully "switched on" and aware at all times. "Umm, yeah. Sure you are."
 
adamBomb said:
Is carrying this much different than carrying a 1911 cocked but not locked?
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Respectfully, I think this question is kind of a red herring, because pretty much nobody who carries a 1911 does so with the safety disengaged.

The spec for military 1911s, IIRC, is a trigger pull weight of between 6 and 8 pounds. Most civilians who carry 1911s like the trigger a bit lighter than that. Most I have tested have been around 5 pounds from the factory, although I have seen a few (that were oriented toward competition rather than CCW) that were around 3-1/2 pounds. There's sort of a consensus (I think) that a 1911 for CCW shouldn't have a trigger lighter than 4 pounds. My preference is between 4-1/2 and 5 pounds.

A lot depends on what you are accustomed to. My guns are all tuned to between 4-1/2 and 5 pounds. When I pick up a 1911 with a 3 or 3-1/2 pound trigger, I have difficulty shooting it accurately because it "goes off before it's supposed to."

That said, IMHO there's a huge difference between DAO and traditional DA/SA. I can't shoot the latter, and won't own one. For me, there's just too much difference between the first DA shot and the subsequent SA shots.
 
Why some striker fired guns offer a thumb safety option.
I agree with the 1911 cocked and not locked comparison.
 
I still have a 1911 (have had a number of them) and have quite a few striker fired pistols (in addition to owning most of the ones out there). Very few of my striker fired pistols from the factory have triggers with as little travel as the 1911s I’ve owned and own (there are some aftermarket options that can get close to removing that difference).

My P365XL has a 5.5 lb trigger as measured with a 5 pull average on a Lyman digital gauge. That’s the same as the Glocks I own. The trigger on my P365XL is the definition of mediocre. The end of the travel is mushy and stagey. It would be an insult to a 1911 to consider the two very similar. In fact my Glock has a “better” feeling trigger (others have P365s that sound much better).

On the other hand I have a P320 AXG and a Walther PDP that came from the factory with a 3.75lb. trigger and a 4.0 lb. trigger respectively. The AXG has very little take up, not quite 1911 but not far off. The PDP has noticeably more take up and feels notably heavier because it’s not until the end of the pull that you really feel the resistance. In fact it’s odd because the PDP in practice doesn’t feel dramatically lighter than my 5.5 lb. Glock trigger. With the Glock the trigger pull is finishing cocking the striker and the difference of holding that tension of the cocked striker and then the trigger breaking isn’t noticeably more than the PDP where the striker is already fully tensioned and you’re just releasing the striker.

Is all of this unsafe? I’m not sure either way. Obviously one requires more effort to discharge than the other. At the same time I’m a person that has admitted to having an ND with a S&W 5903, a pistol with a manual safety, a double action pull on the first shot, and a magazine disconnect. How then did I have a ND? Because I pressed the trigger on what I believed was an empty chamber. Many if not most of the NDs I read about are similar such situations. In those cases disengaging that safety or being able to press the trigger to the rear is something you should or need to be able to do regularly and repeatedly. That doesn’t mean you need to or should be negligent, but it’s not as if the mechanical resistance of the pistol is going to stop the user in that case. The pistol isn’t “smart” and can’t override a negligent user.

Now the heavier trigger could potentially stop someone with a finger on a trigger when it shouldn’t be. However, having done force on force with both DA/SA and DAK SIGs converted to UTM I can tell you I have no memory of any resistance in that trigger pull. Adrenaline was up and I was mashing the trigger in as controlled of a function as I could. Absent a 20 lb. trigger the trigger weight wasn’t stopping me. In a range setting I could see some merit in the heavier trigger stopping an unintended shot, and more so a heavier and/or longer trigger might prevent say unintentional doubling of shots (which did happen to me with a Walther PPQ).

My first handgun was a S&W Model 19-3. I shot DA/SA handguns for a number of years and discussed that on this forum. I was able to shoot them well and proficiently. A heavier and longer trigger can be shot well. I’ve seen a person make a 200 yd DA shot with a P226 on a USPSA steel silhouette. At the same time it takes more regular practice and dry fire, in my experience, to maintain the same level of proficiency as say my Glock or similar. As someone that shoots say 800-1000 rd a month (pre-pandemic) and takes say 5-6 defensive firearm course a year that degree of practice isn’t really a problem for me. I stopped using DA/SA when I started to believe that the system wasn’t really going to stop the types of NDs I was seeing happen to me and others and when I found that when tired that DA first shot wasn’t always as close as I could do with a Glock.

If someone puts the effort into DA/SA, DAO, or single action with safety I think that’s commendable and potentially has a benefit of perhaps helping with negligence (though not stopping negligence entirely). The market seems to mostly be going another way (at least in terms of DA/SA and DAO in a traditional sense). I do think that to an extent you can see this market trend as a crutch for newer shooters to make their shooting easier and make them want the product. I’m not entirely convinced this will lead to a rash of negligent discharges and deaths. I think to an extent we’re hyper aware of this given the ease by which information can be spread. I also think in as litigious of a society as we live in that manufacturers wouldn’t be willing to risk putting themselves in too precarious of a position, but time will tell.


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Carl the Floor Walker said:
I have been a advocate of DAO firearms for many years and for many reasons. However rather than give my personal reasons why I believe in them, I will let the OP read this article below which sums up most of my same beliefs.

Luckgunner WHY I SWITCHED TO DAO
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-switched-double-action/
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Chris Baker puts out a lot of good content. I would point out that article was written in 2016, and Baker has a number of videos of him now (within the past year or so) carrying a P365XL with a manual safety. I know he still uses his PX4, but he has branched out as well. That doesn’t in any way negate the points in the article, it’s just worth noting that the same logic there might be applied to systems not DAO or DA/SA.


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I’m not entirely convinced this will lead to a rash of negligent discharges and deaths. I think to an extent we’re hyper aware of this given the ease by which information can be spread. I also think in as litigious of a society as we live in that manufacturers wouldn’t be willing to risk putting themselves in too precarious of a position, but time will tell.
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Agreed. I dont think we will either and yes I am extra cautious and question everything. I do think that everyone on the forums preaching 'good holster' and 'rules of firearms' have probably helped a ton.

Luckgunner WHY I SWITCHED TO DAO
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...double-action/
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I remember when this article came out. I've read this so many times throughout the years. I've been so close to getting a px4 too but its just too big for me. I love hammer fired and DOA pistols. The HKP30SK would be perfect for me if it was as thin as the hellcat. My home defense gun is a 92FS and I carry a MP Bodyguard. But the hellcat with safety has me intrigued enough to buy it.
 
Only problem is that there a very limited choice of THIN (and light) DA/SA pistols to choose from. Yeah, to me, the Sig P239 is NOT thin.
I want something .9 or less.

I had an H&K p2000sk. Loved it, but it was way too fat.

Since I carry revolvers, the Kahr DAO is so similar, that it is a smooth transition between revolver and pistol. ( I know, not a true DAO, but the trigger feels like one)

Luckgunner WHY I SWITCHED TO DAO
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That should have been why I switched to DA/SA, not DAO.
 
TunnelRat said:
Chris Baker puts out a lot of good content. I would point out that article was written in 2016, and Baker has a number of videos of him now (within the past year or so) carrying a P365XL with a manual safety. I know he still uses his PX4, but he has branched out as well. That doesn’t in any way negate the points in the article, it’s just worth noting that the same logic there might be applied to systems not DAO or DA/SA.


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I believe the key word that Chris mentions carrying the Sig XL is manual safety. It is my opinion that manual safeties take a very long time to become a natural movement or reflex. I spent years using one and even to this day my thumb will go down on a DAO firearm as if it had a safety.
I remember reading about Glocks years ago and sorry if I can not find the link, but one reason Glocks because popular for large organizations was the fact that a safety did not have to be learned with the required amount of time and ammunition.
I use to have a light striker fired gun that the trigger went down to 4lbs of pull. (Triggers do lighten up with shooting). I finally got rid of it, (even though it had a manual safety.) Which was a shame because I really liked the gun. At the same time there were people who thought I was lucky to have a trigger so light and they were actually purchasing these guns without a safety.
Each to his own. I only suggest that if you do choose to get a light trigger, you spend a lot of quality time learning the safety. Or if you feel like you do not need one, than certainly that is up to the owner. I have become so use to a DAO that I really do not want anything but one. I actually shoot them better.

PS Also I do prefer thin grips. And all my EDC have them which are DAO.
 
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I would agree about the manual safety on the P365XL with regards to Chris Baker. He carries appendix mostly and I believe has stated his preference for a manual safety or DA first pull in those situations. Even the Glocks he uses that he carries appendix have the Striker Control Device (formerly the Gadget), or so I believe.

I think regardless of the system you need to devote the time to learning the intricacies associated with it. If you put in the repetitions you can certainly practice say a safety without live fire, both engaging and disengaging. That’s a luxury that a private citizen has that a soldier usually doesn’t. That said while I have pistols with different manuals or arms when it comes to triggers I generally stick with one system for carry at a time. Others can mix and match, but that’s not a strong skill of mine.


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I’m an old revolver DA guy, once I learned how to shoot DA it’s 95% of my shooting now. I picked up a Hellcat a couple weeks ago and am really liking this gun, I feel for CC the trigger is perfect. It’s just heavy enough for added safety but smooth and predictable with a great reset for good accuracy. So far about 300 rounds of various loads and not a single hiccup. I feel another couple hundred rounds and I’ll shoot it as good as most of my guns, it’s a keeper. I think I’ve finally found the gun to replace my good old LC9s with a higher capacity.
 
The sear spring can be changed on the P365 to increase weight.

Walther was going to/did release an increased trigger spring pack.

I too like a SA/DA decocker, but a double action is harder to shoot well because of what your finger does to your grip when it travels. Is a pulled shot worse than a lighter trigger?

LCP gen2 sure took over the gen1 heavy/long trigger. I do think the LCP gen2 is more accurate. I don't carry the gen1 over the gen2 because of safety.

meh.

Not chambered is my idea of being safe. You might live somewhere else that this isn't true. Maybe El Salvador :D
 
wild cat mccane said:
Your P365XL meh trigger might benefit from polishing the sear/striker mating surface. Seems to THE factor that makes a P365 trigger not great.
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I might try that, thanks. I already polished the trigger bar and that helped as there were rough spots that would slow it down when resetting (the trigger bar was quite rough). I tried the MCARBO spring pack as I thought it might be spring stacking (I’ve had that with other pistols and it feels similar here), but all it did was lighten the pull and the pull is fine in terms of weight. It might be my pistol was put together on a Friday (a joke my father used to tell).


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My 365 breaks between 5.5 and 6 pounds and feels pretty good. It’s just a bit spongy but I shoot it well and I don’t worry about pulling the trigger unintentionally in a defensive situation. That is key.
When I bought my 9C used I thought the trigger felt great until I took it to the range and had some unintentional double taps. The trigger broke at around 4 pounds! Before carrying it, I installed the Apex duty/carry kit and it now breaks at about 6.5 pounds which is perfect.
The trend of lighter and shorter triggers is one that seems irresponsible and may lead to unintended shootings. I also carry a Shield 1.0 and like the 6.5 pound trigger.
 
wild cat mccane said:
The sear spring can be changed on the P365 to increase weight.

Walther was going to/did release an increased trigger spring pack.

I too like a SA/DA decocker, but a double action is harder to shoot well because of what your finger does to your grip when it travels. Is a pulled shot worse than a lighter trigger?

LCP gen2 sure took over the gen1 heavy/long trigger. I do think the LCP gen2 is more accurate. I don't carry the gen1 over the gen2 because of safety.

meh.

Not chambered is my idea of being safe. You might live somewhere else that this isn't true. Maybe El Salvador :D
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I do not believe the DAO trigger is harder to shoot well, rather than it has a longer training curve. The LCP is a great example. The Original LCP had a horrible DAO. However the GEN 2, came out with a very nice DAO, much like the Kahr. Smooth, controlled and deliberate all the way through.
Later Ruger came out with the LCP ll trigger which is the current model. A lot of free play that to me feels like the trigger spring is broken and then quicky to the wall which breaks very fast. Since I shoot the DAO and have years of experience with them, I actually shoot the Gen 2 DAO much better and obviously prefer it over the Newer model.
I love to shoot the small barrel firearms. I shoot the LCR22 and the New LCP 22 now on a regular basis. I will always shoot the LCR much better. (In fact it is my favorite 22 cal for both plinking/Training. Personally do not like the LCP ll trigger at all.
For many years, I watched so many people that bought the Popular LCP. The Vast majority could not shoot them with any decent proficiency. And most would just "Target shoot them". And I never thought they would put the required time in training with one. So when the LCPll came out. It aided them for the style of target shooting they used the gun for.
The Triggers on the LCP models have been a ongoing controversy or debate. I still have the Gen 2. I only wish Ruger had a GEN 2 trigger of the LCP 22.cal.
 
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Aguila Blanca said:
That said, IMHO there's a huge difference between DAO and traditional DA/SA. I can't shoot the latter, and won't own one. For me, there's just too much difference between the first DA shot and the subsequent SA shots.
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I have always had a different issue with DA/SA triggers, the transition never bothered me as, being used to strikers and SAO guns, as soon as the first shot broke I felt like I was back to normal, and subsequent shots were just fine.

My big hang up was always the heavy first shot.

Luckily, lockdowns and ammo shortages convinced me to buckle down and learn the DA trigger and now I prefer a DA/SA for carry and don't notice any loss of time or first shot accuracy any longer.

Dry firing with a heavier DA pull than my CCW seems to help more too, makes even my HK trigger feel short and smooth in comparison.
 
The 365 is offered with a very good 1911 type thumb safety. I wouldn't have bought THAT pistol without it. Same reason I waited for Sig to introduce the M17 and M18 with a safety instead of buying the 320 with no safety.

I also have a couple of 1st generation Smith M&P's with the same style safety that have the Apex triggers installed getting them. That brought the trigger pull down to a very smooth 4 lbs or so. I wouldn't have added that trigger to them had they not had a safety.

All of the above guns have triggers lighter than most 1911's so the comparison is valid. I wouldn't carry a 1911 with the safety off.

On the other hand I've owned and shot Glocks enough that I don't mind their triggers as long as the gun is carried in a proper holster. For carry, or duty use I'm fine with a Glock. But for night stand duty or similar where they are typically not in a holster I won't keep a Glock with a round chambered.
 
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