License or Permit?

Add up the people murdered world wide by the private owners of firearms in this century. Then add up the people murdered world wide by governments usually after they disarmed the victims. Then, if you have the audacity, tell me that governments are competent to decide whether or not I should own a gun or carry one.
 
The only problem I have about mandatory military service, is that I CAN'T! I have asthma, it is bad enough that I can't even lie about it to get in, and I actually want to. So would that mean I should not get to own and use firearms? I think if the government provided a mandatory firearms class, so that all are educated, would be fine. I'm talking the basics, specifically safety. I'm sick of people thinking that it is OK for a cop to casually use his pistol as a pointing device, just cause they saw that in a movie. Even though it's all make-believe, don't actors get nervous when other actors casually sing guns around and pointing them at people? I know I get nervous when at the range, and I see a locked open pistol swing in my direction, and I practically hit the floor if the bolt is closed.
Education, education, education. Whether it come from the media (yeah, right) or the government(double yeah right!) it is the only solution.

------------------
Live Free or Die
 
I'm not anti-military, in fact I'm nearing the end of my own military career.
But the suggestion that we institute mandatory military service, especially in time of peace is an abomination!
The men who founded this nation only grudgingly allowed a standing army at all! Madison, in Federalist #24 calls the suggestion that the militia drill on a regular basis, pernicious and disagreeable! Now we are to suggest that citizens should be made to serve a year at a time.
This doesn't accord with intent of the constitution or with the ideals of a free society.
Dragging a bunch of unwilling 18 year olds into the military won't do much for morale or for an efficient force either.
The whole argument for second amendment rights should be linked to the other 9 articles of the bill of rights.

Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness indeed!


------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Some states require tests before allowing even purchase of a firearm. I am reliably informed that up to a few years ago in one county, no black person had ever been smart enough to pass the test. Odd, isn't it. Now if the Governor, or the Police Chief were black, I'll bet the whites would all be dumb. That is the trouble with tests.
 
Keith: Manditory military service might be an abomination, but how about the original concept, manditory gun ownership? As in the militia act of 1792? I believe it has worked out well in Keneshaw.
 
mandatory Military service might not be a bad idea. But it should've started in 200+ years ago.. we'd have riots in the streets and an incredibly inept military force if we just started it up today...

But, on the main issue:

No license, no permit, no mandatory training, etc...

That's how I feel. OTOH, I think the next Federal guide on education standards should include mandatory firearms safety in either Health or Phys Ed class. Teachers should have to be appropriately qualified (whatever the state requires for Dept. of Safety or CCW Instructors...for example). Start that tomorrow, in middle school somewhere. That is how you can clean up the unsafe gun handling in this country.. EVEYRONE should be comfortable and familar with guns, just like cars, IMHO. Accidents will still happen, but htat is reality.
 
The Milita act of 1792 also required, besides ownership of arms and equipment, that each member show up for drill and target practice. OK I'm not for having them spend a year in the service... but I am for having each citizen take basic classes in their community.. Firearms safety... life saving... basic medical.... fire safety... and what would be most beneficial is to have the local sheriff put on a basic police training course. Would give the LEO a chance to meet and get to know the citizens in their community. Would also help to get the citizens over the fear of their LEO's.

Training could be done say one weekend a month for the first six months... and then refesher courses for all about once or twice a year.

Think about it.... I believe that the benefits would far outweight the inconvience. Fact is I think the courses would be fun.

Richard
 
Just a another thought on government mandated/approved firearms training. In my career as a hunting guide I've had quite a few European clients, mostly German, Austrian and French. These folks all had to attend many hours of training in firearm safety and handling, and hunting techniques in order to obtain a license to purchase and own firearms, and to obtain a hunting license. They are also, nearly to the man, the most appalling gun handlers I've ever seen. I can recognize a Steyr rifle by it's muzzle, if you get my drift. They seem to have no muzzle awareness, and no concept of "don't point at anything you don't want to kill."

The also have the disconcerting habit of carrying their slung rifles upside down, muzzle forward over their left shoulder. Therefore, when they are following you, their muzzle is trained at the small of your back, and no matter how many times you tell them to point that thing elsewhere, it'll end up aimed right at you, almost like you're a magnet.

A guide buddy two years ago was shepherding a french hunter and his wife on a caribou hunt. One day the frenchman tried to help adjust his wife's pack while his rifle was slung as I have described. My buddy, Ralph, was standing nearby, glassing, and happened to look down and see the 7x64 rifle aimed at his bellybutton from about 3 feet. Ralph took a prudent few steps aside, and seconds later, the frenchman's trigger caught on his own pack, discharging the rifle.

I'll take a redneck who was taught by his pappy any day.
 
The government has no business in our private lives at all. There should be no "mandatory" anything.
The job of the government is spelled out in the constitution and its a pretty limited mandate. The tenth amendment makes it clear that any further powers belong to the people and the states.
Government isn't the solution, its the problem.


------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Othermarc

You Sir, would do well to read "The Second Amendment Primer".

The Second Amendent (and conversely Licencing/Permitting... and firearms legislation) has nothing to do with guns.



------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Obviously I ineffectively communicated my intent by using the term “military
training”. I also underestimated the willingness of trained shooters to
endure the risks presented by “gun idiots” (examples of which we have all
seen).

Give me enough credit for:
- understanding and despising government caprice and lies.
- wanting training that is cheap, meaningful, and readily available to all
persons, regardless of age, physical abilities, or disabilities (or “challenges”).
- never imagining that every person must go through full military basic
training, AIT, Airborne Ranger, Pathfinder, or whatever.
(Let’s drop that line of thought here.)

My choice of the “military” to teach firearms subjects was based upon:
- their experience and expertise with firearms and firearms safety. If not
perfect, it’s better than virtually all home-grown training.
- their available facilities and firearms which typically are under-utilized,
- their experience with students of varying knowledge, experience, and
abilities. Instructors could quickly learn how to modify training to cope with
students who are medically or physically “challenged”.
- subsidized costs. Training should not be only for those wealthy enough to
afford Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc. ((WARNING: If someone tries to tell
me, “If you can afford a gun you can afford the training,” I will go into a
long, boring, well-documented diatribe complete with listed dollar amounts!
:D Let’s not go there. ))

I freely admit I don’t like the concept of “mandatory” training, but:
- voluntary training is not working.
- home training is not working.
- too often training is simply not available for many people due to distance,
cost, or times involved.
- current training too often is erroneous, misleading, contradictory and/or
inadequate.
(Admittedly there are exceptions such as Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc. but
the rule is training is inadequate. Examples omitted for brevity, available
upon request.)

Training should be mandatory to fulfill the implied requirement of the
Second Amendment. “Well-regulated” (when it was written) meant
“well-trained” .

IMO training should include at least the following (not in this order):
- how to evaluate and choose a caliber, firearm, and ammunition;
- how to safely hold, check, clear, load, and unload a firearm;
- how to clean and properly maintain a firearm;
- all the safety rules appropriate to storage and typical use of firearms;
- conflict recognition, avoidance, and non-violent dispute resolution;
- types and escalation of force and deadly force;
- the difference between “justified” and “required” use of force;
- evaluation of shoot/no shoot situations, (e.g.. number, position, and intent
of attackers and how are they armed, number and position of bystanders,
possibility of escape, evaluation of various responses, who is doing what and
to whom, etc.);
- how to identify and correct common firearms malfunctions, without
endangering anyone in the immediate vicinity;
- how to clear a firearm and properly hand it to someone;
- the Eddie Eagle Program (or similar substitute) and dealing with children;
- range rules;
- shooting stances (e.g. dueling, isosceles, Weaver, etc.) and positions
(standing, kneeling, prone, and modifications);
- marksmanship (including stance, grip, sight picture, breath control, trigger
squeeze, evaluation of shot pattern/group, etc.)
- tactical and target use of handguns, rifles, and shotguns (at least a good
familiarization);
- conduct during contact with police;

I address most of the above (as it pertains to handguns) in every CHL class.
I can not address all these subject in depth for two reasons. 1) It’s only a
10-15 hours class, and 2) my own lack of knowledge. I really am an
amateur compared to many of you. I want (and need) more training but I
can not get it due to lack of local availability and prohibitive cost.

So feel free to add to or modify my list of training as you desire. The
amount of course material should determine the length (hours duration) of
the course.

I am not adamant about this quickly-improvised list. I am adamant about
some level of training adapted, when necessary, to teach any and all
Americans how to safely own and use firearms.

I defy anyone to prove that: 1) proper training is worse than no training or
2) that no training is better than proper training. Either way, it is a non
sequitur.
-------
The problem then is how to ensure “proper training”.

Well, the AMA (American Medical Association) ensures proper First Aid and
CPR training through the National Safety Council, the American Heart
Association, the American Red Cross, the American Safety and Health
Institute, and other organizations.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration ensures students fulfill
national core curricula for various EMS-related courses.

In both cases, the courses are adequate (fill the stated intent of the course),
universal (taught the same all over America), and results-oriented (in most
cases, the student must pass both written and skills testing).

Why couldn’t NRA or some other nationally-recognized organization provide
free (or nearly free) universal firearms training to ensure a modicum of
safety and security. Medical training is NOT required by the Constitution -
firearms training is required by the Second Amendment. Therefore, the
federal government should establish a curriculum and subsidize firearms
training, in a manner to be convenient, affordable, and adequate.

Remember my suggestion states that after successful completion of training
you can carry what you want, they way you want, where you want.

So, unless you can change my mind, I advocate mandatory training. I see
no way to morally avoid it. As advocates of the Second Amendment, we
must take the mandatory training responsibility (“well-regulated”) or we do
not deserve the right (“shall not be infringed”).
 
Everyone thinking about licensing anything, not not only guns, should read or re-read Henry Bowman's (John Ross's) treatise on the National Firearms Act in UC.
 
Mal...

The hell with the treatise on the National Firearms Act... READ (front to back)...

"UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES" by John Ross

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Dennis;

OK... first about military training. Having spent 20 years undergoing the type of Military Firearms Training your talking about all I can say is that you will have to figure out a better way. A NRA class is better for the most part IMO. Maybe DOD could turn over their ranges on the weekends for use.

My first exposure to firearms came when I joined the Corps and underwent firearms training. I wanted more (firearms & training that is). So I took it upon myself to find it. I read everything I could get my hands on (tech manuals, gunzines, etc) and started my learning curve. After a while I figured I needed advanced training.

Off to Gunsite. Now, I'm going to open up that can of worms! Gunsite, TR, etc are not cost prohibited IMO. I did it on the cheap. The class itself was the greatest expense (which I viewed as like an insurance policy (both for it's lifesaveing teachings (gun handleing & Tactics) and as a defense against litigation if I have to utilize my PDW). Ammo for the class - use reloads, lodgeing - Camp out, food - Mountain House Freeze Dried Meals. The only other expense is the cost of getting there.

So all in all I dropped approxitmately $1500 for a weeks "vacation" of instructions & shooting. Figure $300 a day... thats about right for a vacation expenduture.

NOW... as for your class hitting on the highlights of all training. Been there done that. When I decided to start teaching it was at the request of an NRA Instructor. She talked me into becoming on for the CCW Law that just took effect. The Law required a 12 hour NRA Class. I looked over the NRA Personal Protection Class and went "Bull". I then used it as a basis for "MY" CCW Class. The Class turned out to be approx 18 hours (usually ran a couple hours longer). Myself and another Instructor who though the same way I did taught it. We charged the same rate as the other 12 hour classes. The first few classes were kind of sparse, mostly people we knew from the ranges we shot at, but as word spread the classes filled up. It got to the point where we had to bring another Instructor on-board cause we were had to run two classes a week to keep the back log reasonable. We also broke down the classes into knowledge levels. We kind of had beginners, intermediate, and advanced classes. All three utilized the same course material but we changed the focus of the class towards the level of the students involved (i.e. Beginners focused more on Safety, basic firearms knowledge & handleing with an overview on tactics, advanced - an overview on safety & handleing with focus on tactics).

We had people (beginners) take "the same course" (but focused on intermediate) a few months after. They were more than happy to pay the fee again.

You might want to think about splitting up your classes this way. The people taking the class get better instruction on what they need.

Just my two cents worth.



------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Gunny,

1) First of all, thanks for at least considering my views. Appreciate it.

2) Assuredly I will take your word about military firearms training. Heck, I
was in the Air Force! They didn’t show us squat! In 20 years I shot less
than 1,000 rounds (that the USAF knew about). I did, however, manage to
sneak into some Army ranges from time to time. :D

3a) Problem: Note that your training was voluntary - at your own initiative.
Too many Americans think they know all they need to know. They are
inadequately and typically erroneously trained. The only reason I advocate
mandatory training is voluntary training is not working! I hate the
concept of “mandatory” but some of the CHL holders who come to my class
for renewal simply were not properly trained initially because the classes
have NO quality control. It’s all based upon “trust”. Unfortunately, some
number of instructors are lacking in trustworthiness, knowledge, skill, or
ability to convey their knowledge and skills to their students.

3b) Ref my comments on AMA for First Aid and CPR; NHTSA for EMS
classes. Note that the nationwide authority only specifies the minimums -
additional material is welcomed. BTW, OSHA lists various First Aid/CPR
courses for different workplace environments. Some courses are mandatory,
others (usually longer classes) are optional. Point being, my suggestion
currently is working with other subject matters. I agree that the NRA
probably is the best available “authority” for such programs.

4a) The cost of training. Here we may have to disagree. According to
whom you believe, nearly 80% of all families could not pay their bills for
three months without their current income (e.g. one or both wage earners
become sick or hurt and can’t work, etc.). Many families can not afford
$1500 for a week-long vacation. Of those who could, many would not dare
suggest $1500 be spent on one person rather than the family. And the final
killing point (for me) is that it is voluntary. “Voluntary” is a proven failure.
Compare the number of gun owners to the (non-repeat) number of students
at such classes and you will find only a small percentage of gun
owners/users are truly trained. Embarrassingly enough, I will tell you most
sincerely, such schools are completely out of the question for me and my
family. It is not a matter of “discretionary income”. It is NOT a matter of “If
you really wanted to go you could find the money” (an extremely arrogant
and ignorant elitist viewpoint that pulls my chain severely). That’s why the
training should be universal (standardized minimum, optional additional
material), and subsidized by the government. The Second Amendment and
Militia Act apparently require the training, right? Heck, use a couple less
Tomahawk missiles each year and the whole program’s paid for! :)
4b) The value of such training is beyond dispute. We agree wholeheartedly.
It is merely the cost where we must disagree. (BTW, I really like the
“insurance” concept and will use that example in my classes. Thanks!)
5a) Course content. What I listed was just off the top of my head and was
not intended to be a potential curriculum. I hit most of those subjects in my
CHL class and really stress some of them. I also agree that an 18-20 hour
class is better than our 10-15 hour class, but the hours are mandated by
Texas DPS - the folks who administer the CHL program. We also offer some
advanced training, but for the students we are getting that merely means
real practice clearing malfunctions, reloading, different stances,
marksmanship, some tactics, etc. (all this both in the light and in near total
darkness).
5b) I agree that “standardized” courses usually are merely a good starting
point. We have many students who have not fired one hundred rounds of
handgun ammunition in their lives. We have a surprising number of
students who state they have never even HELD a handgun in their entire
life. Though it is wonderful bring such folks “into the fold”, it is obvious that
we must concentrate on the basics in CHL class ($75 for 10-12 hours) and
try to become a bit more realistic in “advanced” ($125 for about 10 hrs).
Considering the level of training many TFL folks have, you would probably
balk at the term “advanced” for our class; but relative to the CHL class,
considering the needs of our students, and the knowledge and skill of this
instructor (ME), it’s about as advanced as we dare be. Unfortunately we
have been unable to generate the demand for classes that you describe. It
possibly is not here in our area (nobody else has the demand either) or we
simply are doing something wrong. We don’t have the resources to go
national like Gunsite, TR, etc. I envy both you and your students!
6) I don’t mean this post to sound like whining. I’m merely trying to find
something that actually works. My main points are:
- There is a need for training. We are morally and legally required to be
well-trained if we are going to carry and be ready to use deadly force.
- Voluntary training isn’t working: Too few Americans, even too few gun
owners are trained in the most basic concepts of firearms safety. Frankly,
this frightens me even more than it saddens me. You would not believe how
many people still believe, “If you shoot him outside, drag him into your
house real quick.” Such crap is unconscionable! Therefore, I am cornered
into recommending mandatory training with universal minimums.
- Many Americans don’t have three months of financial run-time. Rather
than lament and criticize this problem, let’s find a way to accommodate it.
We do not want firearms training to be financially available only to the elite,
therefore I can find no other option than government subsidizing of firearms
training. Maybe something like school vouchers would work???
7) As always, convince me where I’m wrong and/or show me a better way
of achieving our goals, and I will change my opinion.
 
Dennis,

OK I agree with you that most people only want to go through a class to get their CCW permit. IMO That is their loss... and one of the reasons I choose to under go further training.

Lets talk getting further training. Their are other alternatives. There are some nationally know instructors that tour the country holding training classes. Farnham comes to mind... but their are others. Classes are usually 3 - 5 days. Hell.. TR can't be that far can it? Another option is to join something like IDPA and attent their shoots. I was a member of AnTactS (Anchorage Tactical Shooters (which was one of the names... they changed it a comple of times). Some of the shoots were run by a Gunsite Instructor who lived up there. Others were put together by people who had undergone alot of training. You can learn ALOT at these type things.

Further training IS an insurance policy! Not only does it further your profeciency with whatever weapon (and make you more likely to survive a lethal encounter) but it also makes you more defendable in a court of law.

Now if YOU are giving classes I take it you are chargeing people for them. If you are charging you have an income from this. If you have an income from this it is probably taxable. So if you have all this you basically have a business. Expenses related to business (like training classes) are probably tax deductable. ;)

Now for mandatory training. GREAT IDEA... but it will never happen in our lifetime. Back around the turn of the centure was probably the best it got. While it wasn't mandatory Expert Shooters were viewed as National Heros... won't see that anymore with the current and future political climate.

We could all (meaning everyone that is a firearms enthusiast) lobby for a system like Switzerland... but I really don't see it going anywhere.

As for the mandated training classes being perscribed by Taxas DPS. Yeah.. so were mine (proscribed by Alaska State Law). I had to submit a class outline and have it approved by DPS (I believe.. some LEO organization anyway). Of course they specified the NRA Personal Protection as the "base". Which I stated I used to make up my class.

Bottom line is all this... give the best class _YOU_ can give based on your knowledge and level of training. Further YOUR training as you can and incorporate what you learn into your class (even if it means makeing it a little longer). RECOMMEND to your students that they further THEIR training after they get their CCW (remember insurance).

BTW I also gave my students a recommended reading list (Coopers "Principles", Ayoob's "Gravest Extream", etc.)(Though I briefed some of the material in class)



------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"



[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited April 11, 1999).]
 
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