Liberty Civil Defense 357 Magnum

M

mukjp22m

New member
I'm a big fan of the Liberty 9mm ammo. Every time I shoot it and read about it, I like it more. I was very surprised, though, by the new 357 magnum offering. The 9mm is 50 grains and 2,000 fps. The 357 is 50 grains and 2,100 fps. Makes sense they'd use the same projectile since the caliber is practically identical, but just barely any additional velocity/energy. Why?

The 10mm offering, on the other hand is 60 grains at 2,400 fps. That is a beast. Generally a 357 magnum is top dog or about as good as a 10mm, but from Liberty, the 357 is far inferior. I wonder why?
 
Explain to me the theory and practice of using such light bullets. I've seen a lot more proponents of "heavy for caliber" bullets like 147gr 9mm, 158gr 38, etc.

How's the recoil of the Liberty loads compared to "conventional" loads?
 
Every time I shoot it and read about it, I like it more.
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Quite the opposite for me, every time I read about it or see testing done with it, I want nothing to do with it. I find them to be gimmick or boutique rounds. They dump most of their energy very quickly and fail to penetrate deep enough to hit vitals.
 
Light bullets at high velocities tend to have extremely high kinetic energy figures since kinetic energy is directly proportional to the square of velocity. This impresses the layman very much.

Recoil tends to be MUCH lighter since the rounds generate far less momentum.

They tend to have spectacular, if disturbingly shallow, wound profiles. Think Glaser Safety Slug.

The .357 magnum load is probably light to save wear on the forcing cone.
 
The .357 magnum load is probably light to save wear on the forcing cone.
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It's actually quite the opposite. We make a projectile lighter by shaving mass off it somewhere. We can't do it radially, so we make the projectile shorter from the front to back.

The result is gases escaping more quickly behind and around the bullet as it reaches the forcing cone. This is the reason the light 110gr loadings were cracking the forcing cones on S&W K-Frames.

I've never known the ultra-light bullets to be accurate, and terminal performance is meager. Couple that with the potential damage to the gun, and I don't see the point.
 
Yeah, if you just sit there and think about the weight of the bullet, you wonder if it's sufficient, but when I shoot it, it really feels good. The recoil is less, yet I somehow get the sense it's more powerful. It's loud, crisp, functions great, and is very accurate. It has a unique sound to it, more like a high power rifle round. So, just shooting it at paper, it does feel good.

Then there's the actual performance. With a RRA LAR-9, I made a 2 inch group at 100 yards (scoped), and I also confirmed that it punches through a road sign at that distance. This round penetrates body armor, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6h44Pu4sM
In all the testing I've seen, it gets about 11-13 inches of penetration in gel and also breaks through all kinds of barriers. It is not adversely affected by punching through wood, dry wall, or denim. Also, I read that it has less deflection than other rounds when punching through auto glass. It also detonates Tannerite while other 9mm rounds do not.

I think people want to sound smart by saying it's "gimmicky", but all the testing I've seen is positive, not negative. Momentum is energy, is it not? So, this carries more momentum than any other round I know of.

But anyway, my point was not to defend this round, but wondering why the 357 was proportionally unimpressive. Maybe the answer does lie with the forcing cone in the fact that this is generally a revolver round. Good theory.
 
Yeah, if you just sit there and think about the weight of the bullet, you wonder if it's sufficient, but when I shoot it, it really feels good. The recoil is less, yet I somehow get the sense it's more powerful. It's loud, crisp, functions great, and is very accurate. It has a unique sound to it, more like a high power rifle round.
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That doesn't make the round any more effective, that's just your perception based off the sound the round makes and how it feels when you shoot it. It has nothing to do with terminal ballistics.

Momentum is energy, is it not? So, this carries more momentum than any other round I know of.
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Energy has very little to do with how effective a round is, and considering the liberty ammo dumps all it's energy in the first 3-4 inches, even more so.

I think people want to sound smart by saying it's "gimmicky", but all the testing I've seen is positive, not negative.
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I haven't seen a single positive test or review on it.

I'll just leave this here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hZMZM1l04

.
 
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After watching the video in the link, and judging from the results, most people would suffer plenty of damage.
As the reviewer says, multiple rounds might be needed to assure neutralization, but that holds for handgun ammo in general.
The reduced penetration of most of the bullet would be very acceptable in most homes and office buildings.
While the decent penetration of the base would still add effectiveness.
No ammo is perfect and this one does have merit, in MHO.
 
Yeah, I know my perception doesn't make it more effective, but it makes me enjoy firing it. Also, the huge HP on the front makes the hole in the paper bigger, which also adds to the perception of it all.

I do remember this particular video, since it was the only one I saw that didn't applaud the performance. When you sample ten videos, it seems 8 or 9 of them end with the reviewer saying it'd be a good choice. High energy and velocity have their place in the military, and this round does better on body armor and auto glass. The hydro-static shock from the higher energy round will have an effect too, especially with such rapid deceleration.

I expected this round to do poorly on barriers and clothing and such, but it just doesn't. Testing it on a pig carcass through several layers of denim, it penetrates easily, breaks bones, and explodes inside the carcass.

Here's something I've always wondered about, so this is an honest question. How is a starburst explosion 3-4 inches deep not a good thing? I'm a normal sized guy, about 185 pounds, and if you measured 3-4 inches into my torso, that's exactly where all my vitals are. This round would explode right in my heart or guts, and the base would proceed to break my spinal cord.
 
I can see the merit of this round indoors where over penetration is a concern, but beyond that there are far better choices.

How is a starburst explosion 3-4 inches deep not a good thing?
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3-4" in ballistic gel doesn't equate to 3-4" in human tissue which has muscle tissue and bones. You also have to take into account that not everyone is the same size or built the same way, and not everyone will be getting shot straight on, at an angle the bullet may have to take a longer path to reach the vitals. There is a reason the FBI, who arguably put more time and money into ballistic testing than any other agency, set the 12" minimum penetration limit, which is generally required to reliably reach vitals.
 
^^^ THIS^^^

Gel is just a means to compare different ammo in the same medium. It does NOT indicate what that ammo will do in fleshy targets.

Makes an Apples to Apples comparison easier. The FBI has spent multiple MILLIONS of dollars developing their criteria and testing ammo. Although a large and politically driven agency, their scientific methodology is impeccable.

Id go with their results and recommendations over some internet vid anyday
 
Dragline45 and Sharkbite are spot-on. There's a reason why virtually every single federal, state, and local law enforcement agency in the country uses traditional JHP handgun ammo.

Handguns are underpowered, and therefore their performance often leaves something to be desired. So people are constantly coming up with gimmicky, "magic-bullet" handgun rounds like Liberty, Glaser, and -- most recently -- RIP, that are supposed to be extra-super deadly and often make extra-cool patterns in ballistics gel. And gullible consumers often believe the hype and are willing to pay through the nose for this ammo, thinking it gives them some advantage over regular JHPs (the recent internet craze over RIP ammo is a perfect example). But these novelty rounds never seem to actually pan out in real-world testing, which is why law enforcement doesn't use them.
 
Gel is just a means to compare different ammo in the same medium.
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Hey, if I'm ever attacked by a gelatinous cube, those tests might help. Of course, that only happens in 0.0053% of self-defense shootings.

Another factor to consider is this: if I'm involved in a shooting and there's some element of doubt as to my justification, do I really want the use of novelty ammunition stacking the deck against me?
 
The 9mm is 50 grains and 2,000 fps.
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50gr @ 2000 is a couple hundred fps LESS than you get with a .22 Hornet.

How does anyone figure that is a superior manstopper? Because the bullet is 0.13" wider??????
 
357

Still waiting for a 357 maximum.

Here is a pistol cartridge that can perform like a rifle cartridge.

It's my go to calibre when bore hunting with a 14" Contender.
 
Please don't be offended

But when this stuff surpasses a full house 357 magnum 125 grain HP WITH A PROVEN STREET RECORD OF 20 years plus to boot, hell even a 147 grain Winchester Ranger 9mm...I might consider it.

If you mag dump 19 rounds of this stuff into a cracked up attacker, you'd be in the grey bar motel for the rest of your life.

Just more useless stuff the powers that be want us to use so we adopt the illusion of effectiveness .

My Cold Steel Gurka Kukuri is devestating, silent, and produces horrible results at self defense ranges. But if you ever use one, you've got explaining to do. Courts and lawyers love exotic stuff, anti 2A goons love gimmick ammo that jacks up the costs (by association) of the real ammo.

When it becomes necessary to pay $5 a shot for 9mm.... Some will still pay for it, and this gives headspace for the makers of the good stuff to justify a price increase. The US military has switched to HP ammo in the
sidearm variety and it will be more difficult to acquire and cost much more, so in the long run I'd look elsewhere and do so quickly for dependable SD ammo
 
This stuff seems to penetrate gel to near the official standard. Yes, gel is an approximation that's useful for comparing different rounds. No, animals (including people) are not like gel and have all kinds of structures and textures inside them. There are obviously a variety of practical and ethical issues involved with live testing. I haven't seen much testing on fresh carcasses either and I imagine there are economic constraints. I suppose a gel could be made up with ceramic and fibers to better approximate but that also increases cost.

So what do we learn from gel? The stuff penetrates almost a foot. It creates an impressive wound up front. It sends out bits in what I saw described as a "star" pattern. However different animal media might be, this stuff should still do significant bodily damage. When all is said and done, multiple shots of this stuff probably aren't much different than multiple shots of your other favorite defense ammo.

Additionally, I see that this stuff performed surprisingly well against body armor. That could give you an edge against armored assailants, though the odds of that scenario are pretty low.

So I think the real questions are (1) how much more expensive is this stuff and (2) how much additional wear and tear does it put on your firearms, assuming you practice with your defense ammo.
 
This stuff seems to penetrate gel to near the official standard.
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Except the base that breaks off and actually does penetrate that deep only weighs 28gr's, just barely over half what the actual projectile weighs. What is desirable in a premium HP bullet is one that can retain it's weight after hitting it's target, this load sheds almost half it's weight by the time it penetrates deep enough to even have the chance to reach vitals. And even with that said, the penetration it does achieve is below or approaching the bare minimum of the FBI's official standard. How that makes for an adequate self defense round is beyond me, there are far better choices out there.
 
Momentum is energy, is it not? So, this carries more momentum than any other round I know of.
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Hardly... It carries the least momentum of any 357 round that I know of.

momentum = mass times velocity

energy = 1/2 mass times (velocity squared)

Bullet weight (mass) plays a much bigger factor in momentum than it does in energy.

Liberty
50 gr @2100 fps = 490 ft-lbs energy
50 gr @2100 fps = 0.466 lbs-ft/s momentum


Corbon DPX (something close in energy)
125 gr @ 1300 fps = 496 ft-lbs energy
125 gr @ 1300 fps = 0.722 lbs-ft/s momentum

Federal JHP (even lower energy)
180 gr @ 1080 fps = 466 ft-lbs energy
180 gr @ 1080 fps = 0.863 lbs-ft/s momentum

Momentum plays into recoil and penetration (given similar bullet construction). That lower energy Federal 180 gr JHP carries a little less than double the momentum of the 50 gr Liberty. It's is going to break bone and penetrate a lot better. In my opinion, the Liberty is more like a varmint bullet. They'll work very quickly on things much bigger than varmints when everything goes right, but very dismal when anything goes wrong.

the 357 is far inferior. I wonder why?
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The bullet is designed to perform at 9mm levels. Hence, the reason the 357 is driven only 100 fps faster than the 9mm. If you drive it like the 10mm, it'll probably self destruct too soon.
 
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