Liability of custom 1911 for home defense?

I was surprised by his recommendation
that Glock owners use nothing lighter
that a New York trigger.
After all,since the standard trigger-about
5.5 lbs- is is factory stock,I can't
understand how a prosecutor could have
much to work with in condemning it as
dangerous.

In fairness, Ayoob also recommends the
New York trigger because of the way it
"feels" and the better design of the
spring.

Here's what I'm dealing with. I just had my
government model worked on by a highly
respected 'smith. It is my carry gun and
I use it in IDPA competition.
The trigger breaks crisply at just under
three pounds. That's great for competition,
but I worry about liability for carry
purposes. The gunsmith told me that since
I am competant with the gun, I should have
no problems...

Your thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Sport (edited February 07, 2000).]
 
Sport,

Taking the class at Cliffords huh. Anyways, I would have the trigger put at 4 pounds, not for any legal crap like Ayoob is trying to pawn off, but because if you get in a real life situation, and your adreline dumps on you, with the light trigger you have now you might AD the gun. As for the legal stuff, Ayoob is blowing smoke out his butt as he can't show one case where a custom gun has been a liability in a justified shooting. He only uses accidential shootings to prove the point which is different altogether. Ask him how many shootings he's been involved in personally? None as far as I know or have heard.

Brian
 
Brian,

Your "buds" down here send their regards.
During a break after the trigger-weight
comments by Mr. Ayoob, I suggested to
one of the high speed guys you know well,
that he might have to retire his custom
government models from carry use.
He replied all his guns are set up 3.5
pounds and they suit him just fine.

I do agree with you. For my purposes a four
pound pull is more appropriate; for the
reasons you mentioned and for my peace of
mind.
Looking forward to your next visit.
You have a huge following down here.


Addendum: Let me pose another question,
if I may, about light triggers.

Is there a mechanical reason they might
be unsafe, i.e. less metal to metal contact
internally, possibility that bumping or
jarring the gun could cause an a.d.?

In short, assuming one's finger is off the
trigger and safe handling practices are
observed, is an under three pound trigger
mechanically unsafe?

Thanks


[This message has been edited by Sport (edited February 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sport (edited February 07, 2000).]
 
The fact that case citations aren't reported means NOTHING and cannot be used to say "it never happens." There are many reasons why cases never get reported: the judge screwed up and doesn't want everyone to know that he was an idiot; the issue wasn't that important in the judge's mind so he didn't put it out for publication; the case went up on appeal and the insurance company said they'd drop their client if he didn't agree to settle so no decision (cases are usually reported at the appellate level); etc. And if a case isn't reported, there often is no record of it after a few years except on the docket sheets.

AS a litigation attorney, I cannot tell you how many times I have researched an issue that could give me trouble only to find that there is no case law on it. It does not mean that I stop worrying about the issue, or consider it a non-issue. The old "if it was important, someone would have dealt with it long ago" idea is a very dangerous trap.

If you want a 1911 for defense, great. Get a good one, with a decent trigger pull on it, and document your training and skills. But be advised that it is the job of an attorney to MAKE a good shoot a bad one. And if the judge had a bad day or your attorney pissed off the jury, having anything upon which they can base their findings of fact is dangerous. A hair trigger isn't what Ayoob says it is, or you, or your best bud, or your gunsmith. A hair trigger is whatever the hell the jury says it is, and those findings are almost NEVER reversed on appeal.
 
My point did seem to get buried a bit, didn't it? That's what happens when your fingers and mind do not quite merge as one.

There are two points:

1) a 1911 is a perfectly serviceable weapon for any purpose under the sun, as long as you understand the potential problems of a single action, get a reasonable trigger pull, and and you learn how to use it and can establish that you know what you're doing through training (with schools/courses that keep records); and,

2) believing that something isn't a problem just because there is no specific court citation is not a very wise move. There are many reasons why a case where a "hair trigger" argument was used against someone successfully but was reported or reported as something else. Referring to that concern as crap because one hasn't seen it happen is ill-advised. And even if there never has been any such case law, do you really want to be ground breaking in that way?
 
Buzz,

I refer to it as crap because the constant preaching by Ayoob of this concept gets people very paranoid about this subject. Just read Sports original and subsequent posts. I know many people who have taken Massads' classes and they all say the same thing. The man makes you so paranoid that you are almost afraid to even carry a gun, let alone use it.

Just because there is a chance something might happen, doesn't mean it's going to or is probable. It's possible I might get killed in a car accident, so should I stop driving? It's possible that I might win the Lotto, so should I quit working? No, and the chance that a custom gun is a detriment in a righteous shooting is nil. Just because their might be a handful of unreported cases where it got a bogus judgement should not set a doubt or precident in ones mind. If you are justified and the perp was wrong, no spin doctoring or lawyer horsecrap will sway 12 people on a jury that you were reckless or criminally intent. I don't see the gray area here. "He was in my house armed, I picked up my gun, aimed it at him and PULLED the trigger because I intended to shoot him, because he was a threat to me and others". How does the gun, ammo or anything else change the intent or threat? It doesn't and a jury will see through it. The only thing that matters is the question "Did he pose a threat and and did you intend to shoot him?", if the answer is NO to either one of those, then the gun question might enter into it.

Brian

Brian
 
A hair trigger is whatever the hell the jury says it is, and those findings are almost NEVER reversed on appeal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Diallo shooting trial is interesting as the subject of the Glock trigger came up. The NYPD's own "expert" said he didn't know what one was.
The prosecution is well advise NOT to go there and deal with the INTENT. A good defense does look at the variables, but the menu can become so long it clouds the real issues.
As for case law, you know it is a vital tool of defense and if you had it in YOUR favor you'd sure use it and thus seek such which is proper.
Your logic is why the "Twinkie defense" or "black rage" defense comes about. No case law, new issue, hard to argue. Best to stick to KNOWN issues with plenty of legal case law to support it and that includes on appeal.
If you want a real can of worms can we discuss "genetic predispositonal behavior?" It is now accepted in England that some people are unable to control violent behavior on genetic causes. We will get that here.
Best to stick to what we KNOW and not tackle lah-lah land stuff like hair triggers.
The concept a lawyer has the duty to provide the best possible defense is valid, but quality vs quantity is another issue.


------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Brian

I know what Ayoob preaches because I was in that class. (By the way, everyone I spoke to raved about your work. Being a 10mm fan, you and I may have to chat.) I guess you have to count me, my brother-in-law, a good friend, as not being amongst those who were scared off by Ayoob. I think the people who are missed his whole point. He emphasizes that power comes with equal responsiblity and that when we rely on weapons for defense, we are held to the highest standard of care. Guess what? He's right. I'm a lawyer who specializes in civil litigation. As a lifetime gun owner, I've always been concerned self-defense issues from a real world, and legal point of view.

AS for the hair trigger being a lah lah issue . . . bull. It's a very damned real concern. An assistant DA in Nashville "accidentally" pulled the trigger on an alleged murder weapon and said "oh ****" in front of the jury. The jury convicted the defendant of the crime alleged, on the theory that someone carryring such a dangerous item was looking for trouble. Stupid of the jury? Yeah. Stupid of the DA? Nope. He wanted a conviction and used it as a tool . . . or at least that's what he told me. As the DA said, "it's easy to convict the guilty. The trick is convicting the innocent." I hope to God he was kidding about that last part because I know he wasn't about the first.

Having seen that, and knowing what attorneys can do to the minds of both a judge and a jury, I'm not taking the chance. I want that jury to know damned well that if I pulled trigger, I damned well meant it.

As to that last, if you have a light trigger, the jury may believe that you accidentally shot the perp, even if you say you did it intentionally. Why? Because lawyers are going after your insurance, which doesn't cover intentional torts. They will argue to the jury that since justifiable homicide is an absolute defense, you are claiming it for what is clearly an accident. As proof that it was an accident, they will stroll out an expert "whore" who will testify that the trigger weight was such as to lend itself to a negligent discharge under the stress of an encounter. Will it work? Don't know. I've seen a judge ignore sworn testimony in order to guarantee a plantiff's verdict. And I've seen a judge and jury ignore the law to punish what they see as a morally, if not legally, responsible party. I'm not taking the chance with my tail.
 
Oh, Big Dave

After opining about everything else, I forgot to answer your question. A combat tuned 1911 with smooth trigger pull (I actually them a bit heavier than 4-4.5 lbs as I shoot those better . . . yeah, I'm weird) is great for home defense. Redundant safeties, capable of accurate fire (less than chance of a missed shot). Perfect. As for using in competition, that establishes and documents your skill at the same time it improves your skill. Again, great. All in all, a great idea.
 
Let me emphasise that my buddy's case never got to a jury. In retrospect, this was just a bunch of hooey grandstanding to try to arrive at a huge settlement, which didn't work. IF they thought it would have really worked, I'm sure they would have pressed the issue harder. This happened in a smaller town outside of Atlanta, GA. Different people (anti-gun liberals?) in a different jurisdiction (New Jersey, Kalifornia, or Boston?) may have seen it differently.

------------------
Ron

Detroit Area Chapter
Terra-Haute Torque & Recoil Society
 
"Hair trigger." Well kids here it is from the Diallo trial now in progress from the DEFENSE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Members of the jury, you are going to hear about how the danger to police officers from the number of illegal guns and automatic weapons that were getting into the hands of criminals caused the NYPD just a couple of years ago to switch from the standard .38 revolver, six-shot police .38 special, that New York City police officers used to carry and to now require that the officers carry nine millimeter semi-automatic pistols with 16 shots in the magazine and the first trigger pull being a conventional trigger pull and all subsequent trigger pulls being a hair trigger pull,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well the DEFENSE just said the gun had a HAIR trigger. It is an issue? If it is the Defense just shot thier own client. This is what happens when the defense or prosecutor tries to go there. Get it NOW?
I don't expect the lawyers to learn from this. I hope the officer isn't paying for this quality of defense. He should get his money back. Lawyer Epstein made the above comments in the OPENING to the jury. Now they are told by the DEFENSE the gun had a HAIR trigger. Well?

------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Buzz,

Was the case you mention a self defense shooting or a case where a guy commited a crime and had the gun on him?

I still have to disagree that, while I think that a trigger less than 4 pounds on a carry gun is not advised, it is a liability in a case where you show that the perp was armed, presenting a threat and that you aimed and fired the gun. If you fire more than one round, than the AD argument goes out the window.

And as for Ayoobs training/classes. I cannot believe that a guy who is so cautious and paranoid about non-important technicalites then turns around and teaches his Alley Clearing drill to people. Clifford showed it to me the last time I was there. Basically you hold your gun in the weak hand at waist level sideways, put your strong hand trigger finger in the trigger guard and slap the trigger as fast as you can spraying the rounds downrange on the target hopefully. How can he think that a unaimed barrage on a target is defensible in court but a aimed shot with a modified gun is a liability?

Brian
 
Buzz,

We had a case here a couple of years ago where a guy shot his wife in the head and killed her. His excuse was that he heard a noise and grabbed his gun and it AD'ed and hit her in the head. He said it had a hair trigger and the defense attorney tried the same trick where he was playing with the gun and click, "Oh it just went off". That didn't work when a couple of expert witnesses came in and testified that the gun has a trigger pull of over 7 pounds. They showed where they were having problems and he made statements to friends where he wished she was dead. He's in prision right now serving life.

It all depends on the area where you live and political climate. In our state you have to register a pistol when you buy it at the local cop shop, where they perform a safety inspection at time of registration. If I were in court defending a shooting, and the other side pulled the dangerous hair trigger routine, I would then bring in the local police and ask "Would this gun pass local safety inspection" to which the answer would be yes. I know this because I have built 3 guns for the detectives at the department with 4 pound triggers and all the other stuff, and the department is very litagation conscious.

Brian

P.S-You might not want a 10mm as you might make the others down there feel inferior since they can't handle a mans gun :)
 
Brian-I agree with your thinking 100%, however, let me give you a few examples of personal experience in dealing with jurys.

I have had the pleasure :D of serving on 1 civil, 2 criminal and one grand jury in my lifetime.

Civil case: vote 11 to 1 for defendent on the first vote. Two days later vote still 11 to 1. The 1 did not care to discuss his opinion at all. He was of the same ethnic persuasion as the the claimnt. Result - hung jury. Jury nulification does work!

Criminal case #1: defendent convicted in 30 minutes of assualt w/deadly weapon. Cut and dried. Sentence: 12 years. I heard he was paroled in about 14 months and killed 2 weeks later in a hold-up attempt in another state.

Criminal case #2: Son of LEO charged with the kidnapping of two females and rape of one of them. Worst two weeks of my life. Couldn't sleep or eat most of the time. Lost 8 pounds. Defendent convicted in about 2 hours of deliberation. Then the "fun" part began - sentencing. Jury was made up of 9 male and 3 female. I think the maximum sentence allowed was 99 years. Here's the surprising part. Two of three females, ages in mid 20's, wanted to give the minimum, which I believe was 12 years. The older female about 60 was livid. I thought I might become witness to a double murder right in the jury room. Finally we had to compromise at what I believe was 20 years.

Grand jury: I was appointed foreman, which I found out is just one step below God. If you think you live in Mayberry get on a grand jury sometime. We met one day every other week for 3 months. Every night after hearing what was going on in my home town I came home a real wreck, locked my doors, windows, loaded everthing that could hold a round. Also, nearly had to hold the local police in contempt for failing to produce evidence.

Didn't mean to ramble on and on but what I guess I'm trying to say is, "Don't be too damn sure you know what going to happen behind those jury doors". Just do the best you can and let the chips fall wher they may :).

RKBA!
 
Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Glad to hear that the 4 to 4.5 trigger is not classified as a hair trigger.

Guess what?

Brian's making my 1911 :) Now just need to decide which one.

Dave
 
ALLEY CLEARING DRILL? How many alley's did he clear as a civilian? Sounds like preditory OFFENSIVE actions to me. Life isn't like in a movie. It may look and sound "cool" but it is self DEFENSE. Like the absolute morons that think they will "clear" a house. Leave it to the pro's and remember they have problems doing it at times.
The trigger mention was in the Diallo shooting in NY city where they fired 41 shots at the guy. What is cute is the defense claims the NYPD gun had a "hair trigger" and the dept "expert" was asked what a NY trigger was and he had no clue. Get it yet?
Worry more about other more important issues.
 
If my customized 1911 triggered were to fail to drop the hammer, then I hope to use my customized kitchen knife that was being sharpened super razor sharp that may cause accidental cuts on the bad guy. Yeah, the judicial system is full of corruption, lots of laws and few justice.
 
I do not think that using a customized weapon will be an issue as to an intentional shooting. With such a shooting the real issue is going to be wether or not the shooting was justified under the law. Thus its going to be your conduct, and not the weapon, that will be critical.

That being said, if you rip of 15 rounds in 0.00 seconds fron your super-duper race gun of doom, dont be surprised if that is brought into court as evidence that you over reacted and appiled signigicantly more force then needed or warranted.

The big fear, in liability terms, from carrying/keeping a custome gun is in the area of accidental shootings. For example if you rip off 15 rounds from the above mentioned uber-gun, hit the BG with 5 and have 10 sail on through your apartment wall killing a neighbor, dont be suprised if you get hit with a wrongfull death suit where negligemce is partially premised on the type of gun you used and how you used it.

The real bottom line is this (IMHO): if you want to aviod criminal and civil liablity, make sure the gun you own is legal, that when you dont have it with you it is stored properly and safely, that when you do have it on your person you observe all precautions, and that if you do shoot someone you do it in self defense using only the degree of force needed to end the threat.

All of which is a long way to say - dont worry so much about the gun, worry about what you do with it.

And finally, while I am a law student, I am not yet a lawyer and I am not qualified to give legal advice. . .so if you have real questions about this, see a real lawyer.


------------------
"If a man neglects to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example. . ." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
 
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