Liability of custom 1911 for home defense?

B

Big Dave

New member
Hi Guys,

Want to get some opinions. I know I should consult a local attorney....

What's your opinion of the potential(criminal or civil) liability of a custom carry style 1911 for home defense versus an unmodifed production gun.

Say it would have a 4 to 4.5lb trigger, night sites...not a race gun.

Suppose the gun owner regulary competed with the custom gun and also used it for home defense...does that present a liability.

Thanks,

Dave
 
I agree with others who have said that in a justified shooting, the gun itself will rarely be an issue. In defense of the home, with an intruder inside, I can't imagine that any prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney would try to use that kind of argument. In an "iffy" street shooting, followed by a civil suit, the situation could be different.

Still, a friend had a point when he told me about grabbing a double barrel "sporting" shotgun for home defense. "It looks better to the cops, and does less damage to the house, than stitching him up with a Thompson," he said. He was not being facetious; he could have used one of his 50 or so TSMGs.

Jim
 
I'm not an attorney and this isn't legal advice - just my own personal opinion and worth every penny you paid for it...

I intend to use the gun (not always a pistol, but usually), with which I have the most confidence, to defend myself in time of need. That will almost always be a highly customized 1911. I compete with them and I carry them. My carry guns are almost identical to my comp guns and, if that helps in court, fine. If it doesn't, that's fine too.

My intention, should I ever have to use lethal force to defend myself, is to survive long enough to be faced with litigation. I will never use a politically correct defensive weapon out of fear of litigation! If I happen to use one it will be because I have ABSOLUTE confidence in it's ability to save my life.

Mikey
 
I would tend to agree with the position that as long as the shooting was justified, it doesn't matter if you shoot the bad guy with a black powder rifle or a 10-inch barrelled 454 Cassull with a hair trigger and the words "Ethnic Assassin" etched on the barrel. If the shooting was questionable, the choice of gun won't help you.
 
I don't think there would be much criminal liability in using such a weapon.

Real real fun begins when the BG's relatives drag you into court for a wrongful death lawsuit. They make YOU out to be the bad guy, practicing your deadly craft in competitions, modifying your weapon into a highly efficient killing machine, taking the life of their little sweet-ums when that's all they were doing was trying to provide for their poor despondent family. That's also why some folks don't use reloads for HD. It could be used in the same way, fashioning high-powered killer bullets like a madman in your basement.

I'm not saying don't do what you would be most comfortable in that high-stress moment. I'd always use a weapon that I feel most comfortable and secure with and that I've got a lot of practice with. It's just that there are way too many people and ambulance chasers in this litigous society that would use every means available to vilify you in court looking for that almighty dollar. And every aspect could be added up against you. I'd like to hear from others that this wouldn't be the case, that I'm just being overly pessimistic. Sad to say that some folks simply don't believe in a justifiable shooting, no matter what the circumstances.

In my case, I use a standard revolver. Nothing too big, wife has to be able to use it effectively. Factory ammo and lots of practice. I also look at it as a give-away gun. If the gun is ever confiscated as evidence, I'd be able to get by until I get it back or I wouldn't be out a great loss if I don't get it back.

Sorry for the semi-rant.

Disclaimer: I disclaim everything. In fact, I don't even exist. So there. NYAH!


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Ron

Detroit Area Chapter
Terra-Haute Torque & Recoil Society
 
My 70 Series Gold Cup has a trigger pull of about 3#; My G21, 4#. I wouldn't hesitate to use either in self-defense. This issue has just about been beaten to death on Glocktalk, but so far, not one person has offered a case cite in which a shooter suffered criminal or civil penalties for using a modified weapon in a righteous shooting.
 
Big Dave: Ron L. brought up the "civil liabilty" issue which too many overlook. (Aside to Ron L.: great comment. You "been there, done that"? If so, my deepest sympathies. Friggin costly, eh?!?) This is, assuming that the hypothetical "shoot" was legally "clean", the real nightmare. In the "civil trial" arena things are indeed ugly, and expensive. In a home defense senario as you outline, the choice of a "custom weapon" may possibly turn in to a liability if handled incorrectly. Again, see Ron L.'s comments. You must stress your proficiency, and accuracy with said weapon..."the best choice to prevent stray bullets, etc". It gets even more complicated when you hit the streets with your custom gun. But again, if you're "powered by clean living and righteous thoughts" you will...probably!...prevail! Stay safe.
 
I would use the gun you want to use. Save your life first! Then if you need to, contact the NRA for a local attorney that specializes in gun cases. Yes they will help you find one! A good lawyer should be able to convince any jury that you were in the right. ( remember, a jury is made of 12 people who were not smart enough to get out of jury duty!! ) JUST KIDDING!!!
Calvin
" want more gun control? use both hands!"
 
Thanks Guys,

It is a tough question.

I live in Hawaii and everyone I've talked to at our IPSC matches is firmly against any custom type of home defense gun due to the liability issue.

Oh well,

Dave
 
We have dealt with such issues for many decades and it has NEVER been an issue for criminal or civil cases. It gets mentioned but if you note there is NEVER a case title you can research. More urban legend than anything. Amazing how this keeps surfacing in the gun rags that keep it alive trying to convince you they have special insight into such things. I love the big ones that tell you any modification is a no-no and then brag about their custom frankenstein's they carry.
The gun and ammunition just aren't an issue in the real world even in civil cases and if anyone can find a case let us know. But you better have the court of jurisdiction etc. I don't like urban legends. Worry not. Worry more about the legality.

------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
That's just some of Ayoobs paranoid bullcrap. He can't show one case where it's ever been a liability in a clean defense shooting. If anything, it's easier to defend such a gun in court as you can argue that the gun is more accurate and such modifications made the gun safer and less likely for you to ad, or miss with when using in a defensive situation. It all boils down to if you are legally justified or not. If you are, then you'll be clean.

Our local prosecutor carries a Colt Officers model that I built for him. We discussed this at the time and he said that he didn't care what gun a person used so long as it was legal to begin with and that the person was justified in defending themselves. Another person on his staff carries a Hi-Power with the mag safety disengaged.

Brian
 
Fortunately, it wasn't first-hand, but a close second. I had a friend that once used a gun to defend his home but didn't kill the intruder. They tried everything in the book and tried to turn every thing against him in the civil trial, including the evil looking Mossberg "military" shotgun that could only be intended to kill people. Funny thing was that the LEO that came to the house listened to everything for about 15 minutes, surveyed the scene and wrote it off. They ended up going through the courts for what seemed like forever until he tried to insist on a jury trial, which the intruder didn't want. I think the intruder couldn't trust a small town down-home jury to believe that he belonged in a stranger's house with a knife and that the homeowner had every right to protect himself and his property. All the while, his shotgun was being held as evidence, leaving him without his favorite HD shotgun.

In the end, it turned out in his favor, but the prospect of having everything turned against you was a tough pill to swallow. The BG finally decided that he had a lot more to loose, time spent in jail for having committed a felony while on probation (or something like that) against the money he could have pocketed. He was allowed to cop a plea that kept him out of jail if the suit was dropped because his testimony would have put him behind bars for sure.

So, should it be a concern? Maybe. Did it actually work against the good guy? No. Just food for thought. And I should say that this was the only time I've ever heard of anything like this happening because of the homeowner's choice of weapons.

------------------
Ron

Detroit Area Chapter
Terra-Haute Torque & Recoil Society
 
Evidence guns walk. That's why my home defense guns are dependable, quality ones I could replace cheaply tomorrow. My irreplaceables stay in the safe.
Since the fact that I reload would be sure to arise in any civil action, the question of what ammo I use, aside from effectiveness, is moot.
slabsides
 
The gun you are using will end up at Forensics after you shoot the predator who is endangering your life. After court you will get the gun back. I am a LEO and have worked many homicides and I can't think of one where the issue of the gun came up, not one. Either its a righteous shooting or its not and the gun doesn't enter into it, unless you are trying to say that an unintentional discharge caused the shooting. Then it might matter but in a good shooting you don't have a problem. Also a Politically Correct gun will not make a bad shoot good either for that matter.

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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
 
I would like to see a site of a civil case in which the person defending their home LOST due to the gun they used. That the bad guy's attorney BROUGHT IT UP is not enough...they will bring up ANYTHING. Someone who really feels your choice of gun is vital in home defense, please show me a case where the person defending their home lost the civil case solely because of the gun they used.
 
7th Fleet's post is the most sensible and reasonable post that I've read on this subject. Much more credibility with me than that little napoleonic Messiah Adoodi.

If I had a Rem 700 with a 2oz. Jewell trigger, I'd not hesitate to use it in a righteous shoot.
 
Guns used in self-defense will be taken into evidence and may beheld for months and even years. They are not well kept however and often returned damaged from abuse or even crusted with rust etc. Blood will heavily damage a gun in a short time we should note.
Even if you lost a classic 1911 or so, what is $500-$800 if it worked.
In most cases you can petition a judge to order it returned to you.
Some depts will only return it to a dealer so you have to go through the legal paperwork to get it back. That is not unreasonable. It gets them off the hook.
I wish the gun rag types would get off this issue. It came up in the 1960's and won't go away.
As for what they use againts you, if you are in a shooting it is common to hit your house with a search warrant and go over everything in that house to attempt to connect you to the victim.
Also the background checks are done on friends, family, co-workers, kids you went to school with etc to find out your temper, values etc.
It is a long subject, but you will go under a microscope. Remember, with Mark Fuhrman they went back over 10 years to comments he made about blacks to use against him.
Even groups, clubs and organizations you belong to can come back to haunt you. Those cammie sheets and the cammie wallpaper in the bedroom will do it as well. Ammunition is way way down on the feedng chain however. It is much easier to make YOU look bad than a bullet.Worry NOT.
 
Mr. Ayoob addressed this issue yesterday
in the "Judicious Use..." course I,
and other members of the forum attended.

He is okay with customized guns as long
as no safeties have been disconnected
and the trigger pull is not too light.

What constitutes a "light" trigger pull?

Ayoob feels it's one that the prosecution
could convince the jury is a "hair"
trigger.

As an example, Ayoob much prefers the
New York trigger set up for Glocks.
That's about eight pounds.

For Government models, my impression is
Ayoob is uncomfortable with anything under
4 plus pounds.

He stressed the disengaged safety and
light trigger issues at some length.

[This message has been edited by Sport (edited February 07, 2000).]
 
Ayoob feels it's one that the prosecution
could convince the jury is a "hair" trigger.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Really? If it is a legal shooting so what? If it isn't the trigger isn't the issue. If the prosecution is claiming an "accident" ala "hair trigger" then why the prosecution? To a jury a standard trigger would be a "hair trigger." If this is even the lowest effort of a prosecutor he has a real bad case to resort to this.
So we must assume in a legit self defense case we should not resort to an olympic quality target gun if that is all we have because of the trigger? I think we know the answer to that. Ayoob has made a career WARNING shooters about modified guns, now he flip flops and tap dances. It NEVER WAS an issue. And his opinion on ammunition legal issues? (getting hot chocolate for this one)
And of course he did give you REAL case titles to look up to verify his "opinion" I am sure. Which cases were they? I'd love to read them.
 
Frankly, I couldn't care less what Ayoob has to say on the issue. What matters is what he can PROVE. Show me cases. He hasn't done it yet.
 
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